The School of European Swordsmanship Forum

Yes. That's what I was afraid of. IMHO the straight armbar done with the assistance of legs cannot be extrapolated from any of the european fighting treatises. Actually I cannot remember seeing any locks done using your legs as an assistance (correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore I think it is wrong to teach that technique in the context of our european origin art, until a reference to such a technique is found. At least I refrain from teaching it.

FYI there's nothing wrong with the actual technique and I think it's a wonderful and versatile technique that affects the whole way of thinking how to act in the ground. It gives tremendous possibilities for weaker people to overcome stronger opponents so I would be more than glad to accept it in our training regime, but not before a reference to such technique is found from some european manual.

I hope that the origins of each technique was and is explained to the students in the class. This was BTW one of the occasions where the childrens song "oi jospa oisin voinut olla muukaanaa" applies.

Hi,

I think the concept of hyperextending the arm is amply demonstrated in historical european martial arts and also in Fiore. How you do it is less important. While I also think it is good to try to adhere to correct historical technique, I don't really like the absolute approach, i.e. this is right or wrong, basta. Simply because our interpretation of what people did 500 years ago is constantly changing. Moreover, although Fiore doesn't mention breathing exercises, as far as I remember, should we not bother with them because they're not in the treatises? I think the point of the abrazare training was to try out stuff, see what worked and what didn't, play with techniques and have a bit of fun. If you get "stuck" while on the ground, you cannot just stop because it isn't in Fiore, you have to do something or you "lose". Although entitled abrazare training, I reckon this was more of a blanket term or a starting point. If the guys ended up doing some jujitsu, well ok, as long as they realised this, (which of course they did) and didn't extrapolate to call it the "long lost art of Fiore groundfighting" (which, although I wasn't actually there, I'm pretty sure they didn't).

I guess I was a bit hard on saying it is wrong, but I really don't like the idea that when our people end up in the ground they just start to do bjj, which seems to be the fashionable thing to do. I mean every MA seems to be incorporating BJJ's wrestling principles and techniques in their repertoire.


The thing is that taking these elements that cannot be seen in the european treatises really affects the way you fight on the ground. It really does. For example when people who haven't been exposed to juji-gatame start wrestling in the ground, they extend their arms a lot. But when they get caught up in that hold a few times, they quit doing that quite fast. If you look at catch-as-catch can wrestling (which origins lie in european tradition) it looks a lot more different than the modern bjj which has such principles that it's allright not to be on top of the other guy as you can submit the guy from underneath and really the whole concept of controlling the opponent through different guards. Well the guards thing isn't that alien an idea to us, but a systematic use of those cannot be seen in the european treatises.

Of course it's more important to do just something in the ground, but I think there's a lot to do even without bringing alien elements to ground fighting.

PS. Breathing excercises are not mentioned in Fiore, but they are mentioned in other european treatises. Ask Ilkka, he knows.

(03-04-2009 06:11 PM)Risto Rautiainen Wrote: [ -> ]Yes. That's what I was afraid of. IMHO the straight armbar done with the assistance of legs cannot be extrapolated from any of the european fighting treatises. Actually I cannot remember seeing any locks done using your legs as an assistance (correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore I think it is wrong to teach that technique in the context of our european origin art, until a reference to such a technique is found. At least I refrain from teaching it.

FYI there's nothing wrong with the actual technique and I think it's a wonderful and versatile technique that affects the whole way of thinking how to act in the ground. It gives tremendous possibilities for weaker people to overcome stronger opponents so I would be more than glad to accept it in our training regime, but not before a reference to such technique is found from some european manual.

I hope that the origins of each technique was and is explained to the students in the class. This was BTW one of the occasions where the childrens song "oi jospa oisin voinut olla muukaanaa" applies.

Hi,

Just to make sure that everyone is on the same page here. I not talking as school provost, so these are my private opinions. Currently syllabus does not really cover ground techniques, so cannot be official classes covering it. (Or at least classes run by anyone else that Guy.)

You actually have a really good point there - I at least hope we were clear enough that the stuff covered was not Fiore, apart from the plays of abrazare. That why it was labeled free training and we just tried to cover principles, give people examples of said principles and let them play with it. One of the major ideas being that on ground you often cannot leverage locks by getting behind you opponent, so the fulcrum point must be created otherwise, using any available body part.

Unfortunately, there are quite a lot of this stuff that Fiore does not explicitly cover. Funnily enough, none of the big treatises really covers ground wrestling and still Mercuriale (Ilkka will correct me, if I remember name wrongly) from same era states that wrestling on ground is an important part of training, too. So in my opinion, it should be covered somehow.

European wrestling tradition covers leg scissors and I think that is working on the same principle - scissor him to prevent escape from lock. TBH, I don't recall seeing leg assisted locks in medieval/renaissance manuscripts, but catch and similar include them and I am reasonably sure they were not invented overnight. But you are right there, if we want to stay in pure reconstructed renaissance stuff, that lock should not be used.

Secondly, if people ever want to be semi-proficient, let alone good, in wrestling, they have to know stuff outside our own box. And in that context straight armbar assisted with legs is so common, that everyone should know it, just to be prepared. That was also one of the major points of the day, no matter what happens, try to deal with it and see what works. But it was nice to see that people were able to adapt quite a lot of Fiore for ground usage, too.

It looks like the wrestling day will become at least semi-regular event, so tag along next time

Cheers,
Topi

I argee on a lot of points here and agree on the importance of training ground fighting.

Quote:European wrestling tradition covers leg scissors and I think that is working on the same principle - scissor him to prevent escape from lock.

Could you give me an example of these leg scissors? Page and treatise will do.

Quote:but catch and similar include them and I am reasonably sure they were not invented overnight.

Catch includes them but was still heavily influenced by jujutsu in the late 19th century.

Quote:Secondly, if people ever want to be semi-proficient, let alone good, in wrestling, they have to know stuff outside our own box. And in that context straight armbar assisted with legs is so common, that everyone should know it, just to be prepared.

If you want to think about it this way, the best way for us to ensure that would be that every one would start doing MMA for the unarmed stuff. That's where the most advanced stuff today lies and would be the easiest way to make sure that we are prepared for everything.

I just don't like the idea of our unarmed stuff turning in to MMA. That's not historical arts in any way. This can happen very easily because you fight like you train. How long does it take to see people doing juji-gatame's and other bjj stuff in our wrestling matches just because the techniques are unresistibly good to use on the ground? Or that people start to do sacrifice takedowns where they end up underneath, just because they know they can overcome their opponent from there. I mean it was really hard for me to refrain from doing juji's in my wrestling matches in Fiore 5 days tournament as I really had some nice opportunities to do so. (You can see mee instinctively going for the side mount after the takedown in my match against Jukka)

Instead I what I would like to see is wrestling with a solid base on european techniques. It would be even better to get someone who knows catch as it would be a lot more closer than the average bjj stuff.

I hope I could come the next time you train as wrestling sure is fun!

EDIT: If anyone could get their hand on this book Hugh F. Leonard 1897 "Handbook of Wrestling", you could probably find somewhat uncontaminated Catch material.

(03-04-2009 07:37 PM)Risto Rautiainen Wrote: [ -> ]Could you give me an example of these leg scissors? Page and treatise will do.
Catch includes them but was still heavily influenced by jujutsu in the late 19th century.

Only from post-19th century wrestling books and pics, none of the period treatises. So basicly falls to period where there is jujutsu influence already, point taken. I'll see if I can dig out something earlier, but don't hold your breath.

Quote:If you want to think about it this way, the best way for us to ensure that would be that every one would start doing MMA for the unarmed stuff. That's where the most advanced stuff today lies and would be the easiest way to make sure that we are prepared for everything. I just don't like the idea of our unarmed stuff turning in to MMA. That's not historical arts in any way.

A very good point and I really cannot argue with it.

This is also where my own opinion differs a lot from most WMA researchers. The study of WMA and actual fighting ability are 2 different things, people should know what parts of their arsenal are "documented Fiore" and what parts come from somewhere else.

So in class training and training related free play we should stick to what Fiore teaches (or if you want to take few steps on the slipery path, what related manuscripts/masters say but keep in mind that opponent might not be doing the same, then the other parts of the arsenal come into play, if needed. (I am very strongly of the school that thinks "If it worked, it was not wrong.")

Quote:Instead I what I would like to see is wrestling with a solid base on european techniques. It would be even better to get someone who knows catch as it would be a lot more closer than the average bjj stuff.

Yes, that would be very nice Now, where to find that someone?

Topi

PS: And fear not, if it is formal class, I am always trying to stay within syllabus, none of these silly foreign influences.

Topi Mikkola Wrote:European wrestling tradition covers leg scissors and I think that is working on the same principle - scissor him to prevent escape from lock. TBH, I don't recall seeing leg assisted locks in medieval/renaissance manuscripts, but catch and similar include them and I am reasonably sure they were not invented overnight.

Codex Wallerstein for example shows a lock held with a leg. I don't know how seriusly the technique should be taken, it could be just a show off But it CAN be done at it is shown in a historical treatise.

Topi, now we're talking the same language. I encourage people to broaden their horizons and to take part in wrestling, be it eastern or western, is on my recommendation list. But I agree that even then you should know what is what and what is applicable in which situation eg. cultural context.

The problem of unarmed fighting and making "sparring" work in the context of historical swordmanship is not a small one. Because what works in sparring is, well you know, not always what works in real situ. Therefore it would be good to have some sort of ruleset that encouraces behaviour that would work in our cultural situ.

Jukka, I thought someone might send something like that, because I thought I remembered something like that to be in one of the german treatises. I don't think that one applies here, well for the reasons you said, but also for the reason that the guy seems to be standing up. Juji is made with your back on the ground and that I think is not one of the fastest places to get your self up from. All the ground stuff I've seen in european treatises has the "winning" guy on top, ready to leave quickly.

Quote:Yes, that would be very nice Smile Now, where to find that someone?

Esa Koivu writes on Potku and seems to be a man of great knowledge in european wrestling. He has a strong background in grecko-roman and freestyle wrestling but is also versed in catch. He might hold a wrestling seminar if asked (and has done so), but will start teaching regularly only if people start competing (in what, I don't know).

Hold on a minute, now.

There are a couple of points that need to be considered.

Firstly, in a gathering where everybody is welcome to share, we have nothing against someone showing us how to do moves from various styles, be it jujitsu, bjj, catch, greco-roman wrestling or whatever. What is much more important is how all this comes together.

If one understands movement, human body and other things, they can start to improvise and invent new moves by investigating and trying. If done in time, every lock has a counter, every position can be overcome and so on.

Now I have my own approach to this, and if I was teaching a class on my own I would follow a certain structure, and I would aim exactly at what I described above. A specific hold or move can be shown, copied and independently understood, but in the end it should only serve to broaden the way basic principles of movement and mechanics can be applied. Naming a move has it's place, but in my opinion a healthy wrestler is created from the ability to flow and invite the opponent to expose possibilities rather than specifically maneuvering to a certain position.

In the historical material, most of what we are shown is stand-up wrestling. This comes from the context: the wrestling is shown is not competitive but it is that which is to be done seriously. Fiore says that one should learn takedowns that are not dangerous to oneself, I read this to mean that one is not supposed to fall over as they take the other down.

We know that ground-fighting existed, we Mercuriale confirms this and if we wish to expand with the ancient traditions, we know that both wrestling and pankration were done both stand-up and on the ground.

The observation that, when on ground, the victorious part is on top and not on his back is very true in almost every case. This leads us back to the context.

Often in 'wrestling' people start to wonder about the context: what exactly are they supposed to do? In Greek wrestling, the goal was to throw the opponent on their back three times. This pretty much prevents juji-gatame lyng on ones back. In pankration, they aimed to place the opponent into a position where they could freely strike the opponent - this is seen in Fiore as well, even with similar moves. We also know that they did wrestling for health purposes, and I suppose risking arm breaks was not intended in this context, but rather they fought for position of dominance.

For the use of feet in wrestling, there is also this from CW http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/154.jpg and others as well, two sitting control holds in the end of Thott Talhoffer, and examples in ancient art, like in the attachments.

Finally, practicing a certain move does not make whatever is done necessarily BJJ or anything else. I agree that the origins of the actions need to be studied, at least by some, but I see nothing wrong in learning a move and applying it if it seems to work - which usually requires it to be in the right context. A style is about how it is taught and not only what individual actions get done in the end. Knowledge should not be a limiting factor, but only allow us to learn more.

I personally am much more interested in understanding how to create moves than in learning them individually.

- Ilkka

Yours,
Ilkka

(03-04-2009 09:46 PM)Risto Rautiainen Wrote: [ -> ]Jukka, I thought someone might send something like that, because I thought I remembered something like that to be in one of the german treatises. I don't think that one applies here, well for the reasons you said, but also for the reason that the guy seems to be standing up. Juji is made with your back on the ground and that I think is not one of the fastest places to get your self up from. All the ground stuff I've seen in european treatises has the "winning" guy on top, ready to leave quickly.

Right, but I was posting an example of leg assisted lock to Topi as he said he couldn't remember seeing one in medieval / renaissance manuals. And that one does the job, now doesn't it?

I'll second Ilkka's post.