Guy Windsor
I’m here today with Brittany Reeves, who is the head instructor of Mordhau Historical Combat in Mesa, Arizona. She is a seasoned instructor, having taught across Europe and North America with a specialisation in test cutting with sharp blades. She is of course most famous for her first appearance on this show in Episode 22. So without further ado, Brittany, welcome back.
Brittany Reeves
Thank you so much for having me.
Guy Windsor
Now, as you will probably recall, I ask everyone whereabouts they are. Are you still in Arizona?
Brittany Reeves
I am. Yes, I am in Mesa, Arizona. I remember when I first moved here, I kept calling it “messa”. And my husband was like, no, honey, you gotta fix that. So, Mesa, Arizona.
Guy Windsor
Okay, it’s the Spanish word for table, correct?
Brittany Reeves
Sure. Probably.
Guy Windsor
I guess that’s where it’s coming from.
Brittany Reeves
Probably, I think it’s like some sort of, what is it, a geological formation? And I think it’s got a big plateau on the top. I think that’s why it’s called the word for table, but that is not my area of expertise.
Guy Windsor
Okay, well, we are going to get on to our area of expertise. So since the last time we spoke, you have got very much more into the realm of cutting with sharps, which I’m a huge fan of. So let’s start with why cut. Why do you think is a good idea for people doing historical martial arts to cut stuff up a sharp sword?
Brittany Reeves
Well, one, it’s exceptionally fun. But that just kind of goes without saying. But I think there’s a lot of different reasons. One, it depends on your goals, of course. And that’s kind of how you get different reasons. But if you are interested in the application of swords, there’s, in the back of your mind, the idea that well, if this was sharp, what would it do? And that’s more of the martial side, of course, there’s the sportive side, where we kind of throw that out the window a little bit, and we just, you know, it’s like, whatever, the touch is the touch, and it’s no big deal. But if you are trying to understand the art from the context of simulating a sharp or what a sharp sword could do, you know, you have the opportunity to actually apply that without maiming or killing anybody. So that is like the biggest reason, in my opinion. So another reason that I really think cutting can be valuable, is it’s very low impact on the body. And I have a number of students that, for example, they can’t spar because of post head injuries, like a post concussion syndrome, so they can’t take any hits to the head or whatever limitations they have physically, sometimes medically, cutting actually has very little risk in terms of them getting hurt. I mean, as long as they’re always being safe with the sharp, but it’s very low impact. So it can still be a valuable way to engage with the martial art without having to actually commit to sparring with another person.
Guy Windsor
Okay. Yeah, I would go further. I mean, I think cutting is absolutely essential, because if you’re trying to recreate a historical art, I wrote an article on this. You didn’t happen to ever come across Western Martial Arts Illustrated issue two that came out in 2007?
Brittany Reeves
No, you know what, 2007 would have just been before my time.
Guy Windsor
Yeah. Okay, so I wrote an article about this because I’ve been including cutting with sharps for as long as I can remember, it must be at least 2003 was the first time I saw it at an event, which was Benicia, California 2003. And that sort of showed me how to incorporate it as a proper practice into things rather than just doing it more randomly. But it’s like, you can either be testing your striking mechanics, or you’re testing the weapon or you’re testing the substrate. So, like, if you want to know what a sword does to this particular kind of gambeson fabric you stick it over a leg of lamb, hang up the leg of lamb, cut at it and find out what happens. So you can be testing the target, you can be testing the sword. So is it sharp, how well does this kind of blade geometry cut, and what have you, or you can be testing if you keep the target the same, and it’s all the same, you can be testing how well you’re cutting, what effect your cutting mechanics are having on the target. I don’t understand how anybody does swords seriously without incorporating it.
Brittany Reeves
See, I try to avoid the inherent, and I’m not saying you’re an elitist, but some people get very particular about cutting. And so I always try to avoid being like, well, you have to, if you don’t you’re missing this big thing. I personally feel that way. I really do. I do think it’s critical. But there are so many people who just don’t do it. And I’m always so hesitant that I’m like, I don’t want to invalidate what they do do or what they do focus on. But every time I’ve seen somebody do cutting, there’s always a light bulb that goes on and oh, I learned something I never would have thought of before. So yeah, it becomes very invaluable. But I’ve had conversations with people who do certain types of weapons-based martial arts where cutting is not the main focus, like smallsword, for example. Well, what am I going to do, how does that make any kind of valuable effort towards smallsword? I’m like, okay.
Guy Windsor
With small sword. I use thrusting targets, and I thrust the sharp sword into the target and find out how much force you need to go how deep for instance.
Brittany Reeves
Surprisingly, very little. Exactly.
Guy Windsor
They’re really good at going into things.
Brittany Reeves
Yes. And I’ve been thinking about this for a few weeks lately about like, we call it cutting. But when I do cutting, I’m not just doing cutting. I’m testing thrusts. I’m testing slices. It’s more than just cutting, but I haven’t come up with a better name. So yeah, sounds kind of exclusive. So then the people that do like thrust oriented arts are like, oh, I don’t need to do that. It’s like, you can. It’s just I don’t have a better name for it. Like more inclusive term for more than just cutting. It’s, you know, testing sharps. But how do you say that? I guess just testing sharps I guess.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, I mean, it’s part as part of the whole training with sharp swords thing. I mean, I do forms with sharp swords, I do cutting and thrusting, basically target destruction, with sharp swords. And I do pair drills with sharp swords.
Brittany Reeves
Do you? Oh, I’m too scared to do that. I’m too scared to do that.
Guy Windsor
Before people listening go, oh my God, Guy’s a lunatic. It’s worth pointing out that this is my actual job, and has been for a really long time. And one of the things students are paying me for is knowing what I’m doing. So when I say, okay, and in this drill, we cut like this. And we do it because it’s going to have this effect. They are paying me to know what I’m talking about. So I have to be able to do all of these things. For me, the risk profile is different, because the rewards are different. I should also point out, most of my senior students spar with sharp swords every now and then at least, right? It’s just another sort of training environment.
Brittany Reeves
Yeah, I’m going to plead the fifth on this one. I’m going to avoid saying that I do anything in particular because my insurance company is very particular in the United States about how we use sharps so I’m going to plead the fifth.
Guy Windsor
You wouldn’t dream of it. We’ve never seen an injury with sharps. All of the injuries that do occur, like the occasional puncture wound, or broken finger bone or something like that. Like the ones which actually require a trip to A&E, which we’ve had, I think, two in 20 years. That always comes from sparring in a competitive environment with blunts. Always.
Brittany Reeves
That’s the thing, right? It’s like cutting is exceptionally safe. If you just look at the numbers, like, you know, you might get the occasional cut on the hand, and I’ve seen I’ve seen plenty of accidental cuts happen in test cutting. I have, yeah, well, I’ve been competing in cutting a long time. And it’s usually because somebody, they finished cutting, there’s never been a problem. They’re left to then clean the blade. They get distracted talking to somebody next to them, they’re wiping it down and it ends up cutting their hand. I’ve seen that in a few tournaments and it’s usually minor. It’s never anything crazy. And anytime I’ve seen it I’ve never had anybody like go to the ER or anything. Or I think the worst that I have seen was in a tournament, somebody had their sword stuck in a tatami mat, and then tried to get it out, it got stuck. They stepped back being like, ha ha, look, it’s funny, it’s stuck. And then the weight of the pommel started to pull it out. And they went oh no, because they were scared of this very expensive, sharp falling and they tried to catch it. So it’s usually like just silly things like that, that are so preventable. And it’s usually never during the actual practice of test cutting, and that’s it. But I’ve never seen like anything crazy, or like somebody’s sharpening their they’re sword or they’re cleaning it or something. But you go to a tournament that has cutting and sparring tournaments. And you look at the injuries, it’s like you maybe get one in cutting maybe. And that’s rare. But then there’s always like we’ve had two concussions, three rolled ankles and a broken hand. It’s like, oh, my goodness, like cutting is really, really safe.
Guy Windsor
So, as I said, I’ve been incorporating cutting systematically since for 20 years now. And I haven’t really been involved in the test cutting scene as such. So I’m curious to know, how have you seen it developed since you’ve started historical martial arts?
Brittany Reeves
Yeah, so it’s kind of interesting how that’s changed. At least I can only really speak to the North American scene for cutting. I’ve only recently kind of stuck my toe into the cutting scenes within Europe, which is its own separate beast because of laws. And you know, it’s very different. So I can’t really speak to it over there. But in the United States, it’s developed a very long history. And you’ve obviously tested that you went to an event in California, and you said in what 2003? That’s way, way before my time. So it has a long history here. But I’m going to go from the timeline of when HEMA specifically, rather than the larger kind of Western martial arts, but HEMA as its own identifiable community, really started incorporating cutting, maybe 2013ish, 14, maybe. And so in that time, when I first started doing HEMA, which was around 2011, there really wasn’t a whole lot of cutting. And then when it started picking up speed, I wasn’t allowed to do cutting. My former instructor was like, no, you’re not. You’re not ready. You’re not highly trained enough.
Guy Windsor
Yes, I know who you’re talking about. Doesn’t surprise me. Yes. He was a dick, move on.
Brittany Reeves
At that point, I didn’t have enough training for him to feel like I was ready.
Guy Windsor
Bollocks. I’ll tell you exactly what it is. It’s got nothing to do with that. Because you can take someone, I have done this, I have done this in front of an audience of several 100 people. I’ve taken someone who has never held a sword before, not a proper sword anyway, and got them to cut a target. And they’ve literally had no training whatsoever. It has nothing to do with the level of training of the students. It has everything to do with the motivations of the instructor.
Brittany Reeves
Yes. Hindsight is a beautiful thing. But at the time, I understood, I guess, his reasoning at the time. So I wasn’t allowed, but I was always really kind of curious about it. So I was like, wow, like, these are sharp. And I don’t have to stress out about people hitting me. But I watched it develop early on as a bystander. And then I was determined to get into cutting, I was really, really determined. And I have told the story so many times. I was invited to cut for the first time. And I was very nervous. And I was told all these things like, oh, make sure you don’t do this. Make sure you don’t do that. Don’t hit the stand. Don’t hit the ground. Don’t do this. Don’t cut your leg don’t, like oh my god. So nervous. And my friend had brought out his new custom, some fancy sword, I don’t remember, but it was very expensive. And I got scared, I over swung and I drove it right into the ground. And we were on pavement or something. I was promptly removed from the cutting party. And so I was very scared at that point. I’m like, oh, man, I can’t do this. This is too much. And the psychological weight of it really, you know, grasped me, but instead of getting into the whole personal journey, because that’s its own story. The early cutting tournaments of, at least the one Western part of the United States were invitational only for a very long time. I think there were some malicious reasons for that. But I also think there were some pretty sound reasons for that, which was insurance liability, making sure that they could do high level feats, without risk of like just people flailing around and flinging a sword into a crowd or something like that. But it was invitational, and there were no women doing it at all. I had never seen a woman cut in a tournament before at all, for many years. And because it was invitational, it kind of got cliquey. And then the cutting community in the US at least, was kind of an old boys’ club and very insular, and it was hard to break into. But eventually, that opened up, and it’s very different now. It’s bigger now, too. That’s the other thing. It was inaccessible for a lot of people early on, it was very expensive. There was an arms race to have the best, most expensive sword, oh my god, so everybody felt priced out of it. People compare cutting in HEMA to like golf. And I would agree, the early attitudes around cutting here were, you’ve got to have money. Basically, you have to be a man. And it was very exclusive. And it wasn’t super friendly. That’s changed now. Obviously, it’s been many years.
Guy Windsor
What made it change, do you think?
Brittany Reeves
A lot of things, I think there were certain key players who really wanted it to grow. One of those people is Philip Martin. He’s a passionate martial artist, in the truest sense, where he wants it to grow. And he’s like a gardener. He’s very nurturing of the community. And everything that he does, he does with the intention of growing the interest of cutting, expanding the community, making it more accessible. And he ended up being my coach, which was instrumental for me, it was the best thing that ever happened to me in HEMA was having him kind of take me under his wing for cutting and be like, let’s do this. You want to cut? Let’s make you champion. And I was like, oh, really? Me? I’m nobody. He was like, no, anybody can do it. If you want to do it, let’s just put in the time, and I was like, Okay. And that was many years ago. And since then we’ve run cutting tournaments together. And we’ve worked very hard to try and make it more accessible. One of the things we started doing was changing the stand height, the cutting stand, the height of that stand. We offered a tournament back in January, where you could have the standard height, and there was a shorter height for people that were under a certain height. And you could choose which one you wanted. And we didn’t force that on anybody. And it had come up because there were some people in the community who were much shorter than the average person. And even myself, you put it a tatami mat on that stand. And it’s taller than my head. And I’m not a short person, I’m average for a woman, I’m five foot six. But when I have to reach and go on my tiptoes to try and get my first cut, there’s a problem. I’m at a disadvantage. Now imagine being a woman who’s five foot one. So we ended up getting the shorter stands and suddenly, smaller people are starting to medal and find success. Funny how that works. So we’ve kind of really pushed for equity and equality to try and make the experience more accessible for everybody and more fun.
Guy Windsor
Do you have a standard type of sword that people should be using, because to my mind, in the ideal cutting tournament everyone will be using the same sword. And it will be sharpened in between these round. So everyone gets a freshly sharpened sword by somebody who knows what they’re doing. Or maybe you have a choice of three swords but anyone can use any one of their three swords, but that way because, I mean, a sword designed for test cutting cuts better than one that is more of a general purpose medieval longsword designed for killing people wearing armor,
Brittany Reeves
So it depends. We’ve experimented with a bunch of different types of tournaments in terms of like what sword you can use, and I have competed in, I don’t know how many cutting tournaments I’ve done now, but a number where I’ve had to bring my own sword, or use the one sword. There’s pros and cons to both. When you use the same sword for everybody, it’s equal, right? Everybody has the same sword. There’s no arms race for who has the better sword.
Guy Windsor
So long as it fits their size. So you need to have a range that people can choose from.
Brittany Reeves
Exactly. So I went to the Helsinki Longsword Open to do cutting, I had a blast, that was an awesome experience, but they provided the sword. And the sword they provided was really big for me, super long, pretty heavy. And so I was at a disadvantage. And here I am cutting against these big strong dudes, and we’re using the same sword. I didn’t mind. I feel like I’m a skilled enough cutter that at this point in my career, so to speak, I can pick up any sword and I can make it work. But that has taken years and years of practice.
Guy Windsor
And it’s not what the competition is supposed to be about. Because I think most people listening probably have never seen a test cutting tournament. How is it judged? So what are they actually judging? Who’s judging? How does it work?
Brittany Reeves
Like all HEMA tournaments, it’s variable for the rules. But most cutting tournaments are judged based on the quality of the cut and the quality of the form. So if you’re using tatami, you’re looking for a cut that is a smooth trajectory. So there’s no scalloping, there’s no fraying, the pieces fall straight down. A bad cut, for example, obviously wouldn’t make it through the tatami, the piece could go flying like 10 feet away. Or it scoops. Things like that. So that’s how the quality of the cut is judged. And then there’s form as well, like there’s a criteria for the form. And that can also be sometimes subjective. But for the most part, like when you see that it kind of makes sense. If you’re doing a cut and you overpower it and you hit the floor. In some tournaments, that’s a disqualification. But in others, it’s just a major deduction and that’s considered poor form. Or you cut and it spins you around, if you have no control, that’s a form deduction or a DQ, disqualification.
Guy Windsor
So how are these points weighted, and presumably, different cuts score differently because a descending cut from your dominant side is easier to pull off than a horizontal cut from your backhand side, for instance?
Brittany Reeves
Right. So again, it depends. There is no standard rules across all cutting tournaments, everybody kind of does it differently. The typical ones that I’ve been in is all the cuts are weighted the same, and you get 20 points automatically, and then every deduction takes away from those points. And it just depends. I mean, I’ve been to tournaments where it’s judged completely differently. But the main goal is, if you make a nice cut with good control, you should win. If you can do that consistently.
Guy Windsor
So how many cuts are you taking? So you have a tatami in front of you, what are you actually trying to do? Do you just cut it once?
Brittany Reeves
It depends. So there’s a bunch of different fields. So like, novice or intermediate tournaments, they might have you do four cuts on tatami, and it’ll be two descending from your right and two descending from your left. And for a lot of beginners getting four cuts on that can be exceptionally difficult.
Guy Windsor
Sure, so that’s four cuts on the single tatami and you have to do all four, and you’d lose points, if any one of those doesn’t work properly.
Brittany Reeves
Right. Yep. Other times you can have a more advanced feat, or like thing to do is what we call a double cut, which is where you have to do a rising cut from below. Very low on the mat. And then you have to come back down with a descending cut on that cut piece before it falls.
Guy Windsor
That’s hard.
Brittany Reeves
It is and it’s only two cuts on the tatami so it can be variable.
Guy Windsor
That first cut, if you don’t get it perfect, the tatami piece is already flying away. And even if you do get it perfect, there’s nothing holding it in place when the descending blow comes down. So if it’s not absolutely right, yeah, you’re just gonna bat it away. That’s fantastic. That’s a really nice combination.
Brittany Reeves
It’s a difficult one. It’s one of my favorites, but it’s only two cuts on tatami. That’s it. Okay, so it can be variable.
Guy Windsor
Okay. So, all of these competitions, they’re testing the cutting mechanics.
Brittany Reeves
Yes. And traditionally that’s how that was. But now we’re starting to see some new feats or new challenges that try to test some of the sparring aspects of it. The Helsinki Longsword Open, and so did SoCal Sword Fight, they called it a parry, cut, parry. So you have somebody on the other side of the mat with a very long wooden dowel. And they swing it out you, you have to parry it with the sword, come back down, cut the mat, and then parry the second blow from the staff. And so that is more than just a static cut. Now you are trying to get dynamic with it.
Guy Windsor
But how on earth do you make that consistent for every competitor? That person with the staff has their have their own biases, whether they are conscious or unconscious?
Brittany Reeves
Oh, yes. I fully believe that the last time I did this, I think I was given a gentler cut than someone like Matthys Kool was given. Because I’m a small, unassuming woman.
Guy Windsor
If you’re holding a three foot long, sharp steel blade, you’re getting no quarter from me at all. Swords are equalisers.
Brittany Reeves
I don’t think it was intentional, exactly, or maliciously sexist, I think it was just like, oh, I really can’t swing as hard with her as I could with Thys, for example. And I’ll be honest, I appreciated it. Because I was scared to death, I was terrified of that feat. Psychologically, I couldn’t get over it. And I failed it miserably the first two attempts at it. And on the third, I finally kind of hit my stride. And I was like, oh, this isn’t so bad. But the first two I was like, oh my god. So yeah, they’re starting to incorporate more challenging feats at the advanced level, to not just test static cutting or tricks. They consider like a double cut, like a trick cut. It is yes, yeah. But they’re trying to find new ways to challenge advanced competitors. So they’re incorporating things like you have to do this relay, you have to run this distance before you cut. So you don’t have time to set up, get your footing, get your balancing cut. So it’s starting to kind of evolve a little bit more to be less sportive and more martial again.
Guy Windsor
Do you ever practice with moving targets?
Brittany Reeves
I do not. And not because I have anything against it. But because I just have no way to do that. I don’t know how to do it.
Guy Windsor
Okay, I’ll tell you exactly that. I have a video called Falcata Tennis, which is my friend JT Palakka, who’s a sword maker, he made particular falcata that he wanted to test. And he brought another falcata as well. And we went to my salle, and I soaked some tatami and set it up, and we cut with various things. At the end of it, at the end of any test cutting session, you have a whole load of bits at tatami on the floor. So what you do is you stand, maybe, I guess, let me just convert to American, about 15, 20 feet away from each other.
Brittany Reeves
I’m Canadian, you can give me metres.
Guy Windsor
Oh sorry. So yeah, maybe, maybe like four or five meters away from each other. Anyway, reasonably far apart. And you take one of the larger lumps, and you just underhand it gently, so it’s horizontal in the air at your partner, and they cut it out of the air with whatever they’re holding, which in our case was falcata. And then they toss one back at you. And then of course, you can get a bit more creative. And you can throw them faster, or you can throw them at a funny angle or you can make them spin in the air. And you know, they can hit it with a cut, they can hit it with a thrust. Yeah, you’re basically just playing and of course, you got to be a bit careful. You basically you’ve got to be playing with someone who you can trust not to let go of the sword when they are swinging, because you are standing in exactly the wrong place for that. So it’s slightly risky. But I have a video online.
Brittany Reeves
I’ve definitely had people that kind of toss water bottles at me and stuff. But it’s always been not really with the mindset of training, but more just play. And then there has been, I can’t believe I totally forgot about it because it was like such a cool thing. SoCal swordfight has a tatami robot, and it’s a cutting stand, but it’s on a moving platform. And they’ve programmed a pattern for it to move on the floor. So they have done, I’ve never tried it. I was not at that level at that point when they did it, but they have it moving around, and you have to chase it. And sometimes it’ll come back towards you. So you have to like retreat and cut and it’s been tested. It’s just been extremely dangerous.
Guy Windsor
What is the danger, is it you’re going to hit yourself when you’re moving around?
Brittany Reeves
Yeah, they put it on a triangular base, and it had very sharp edges.
Guy Windsor
So the thing would hit you.
Brittany Reeves
When it comes back at you it’s like going to take out your legs.
Guy Windsor
That adds a certain level of pressure.
Brittany Reeves
Yes. So I don’t know if they’re going to do that again. I think it was just a fun experiment. But I’m at a point now where I’m a lot more confident in my cutting, I’d like to try it. But I’m sure I could just go to Myles and RJ and be like, hey, do you still have that tatami robot? Like, can I come?
Guy Windsor
Is this Myles Cupp? I’ve had Myles on the show. He’s great.
Brittany Reeves
Yeah, he’s wonderful. He’s like, my HEMA brother. We like grew up together as HEMA babies.
Guy Windsor
Excellent. Okay, so the overall cutting thing, like, back in the day, when everyone was trying to do historical longsword, the tournament seem developed as its own separate thing. It has become its own separate thing, which is related to but not the same as the sort of historical martial arts thing.
Brittany Reeves
I would agree. Yeah, I would agree with that.
Guy Windsor
And of course, a lot of people do both. And I would argue that historical martial artists absolutely should do tournaments relatively seriously at some point in their career, because it’s a really, really useful learning environment. But that’s the thing. Where do you see the cutting community or the cutting scene going from here?
Brittany Reeves
That’s a tough one. Because I want to be optimistic. But there are some things happening currently, at least in the United States, that have me very concerned for the longevity of the community. Without really giving out too many details, there is an insurance issue right now, where American insurance providers are now across the board, denying cutting insurance or coverage for cutting for for-profit groups. So we’ve had to get creative. And we still want to pursue cutting, but we want to do it without upsetting our insurance companies. So you know, we’d started to dabble a little bit in paper cutting but using blunts instead of sharps with paper. It’s not as fun. It doesn’t scratch the itch. It’s not the same. But at this point, there’s been a few instances where it’s been the only option. It’s that or nothing. So I’m concerned about that in the long term.
Guy Windsor
Sorry, are nonprofit groups able to get insurance for it? So I mean, to my mind, the obvious thing is you start a cutting charity.
Brittany Reeves
Yes, it’s a tricky thing. So in the United States, we have the HEMA Alliance. I’m sure you’re familiar, but if anybody’s not familiar, they’re a nonprofit group. They’re not a governing body. They don’t do anything like that. But they provide insurance for groups that can’t get it normally, because they’re too small or whatever. Somehow they’ve managed to maintain their cutting coverage. And they’re the only ones. I don’t know anything about how or why or what, but they seem to be the exception. And that’s great, because then that still leaves the door open for the cutting community. But it gets difficult because most of the large schools that are hosting cutting tournaments, are for profit, and therefore cannot be affiliates of the HEMA Alliance.
Guy Windsor
Right. Okay.
Brittany Reeves
Right now, we’re not sure exactly what to do. But the cutting community has always kind of overcome some pretty wild obstacles. And I mean, we’ll make do, we’ll figure it out. We always do. But other than that, I think, you know, we’ve solved the tatami crisis.
Guy Windsor
Oh, tell me all about that. Because back in 2003 I was like, where the hell do I get to tatami from? And I found a chap in Sweden who was supplying it and I bought a lorry load of tatami bales. I stored them and sold bales and sold them. Eventually we use them all up. But 50 bales of tatami is a lot. It’s 2.5 thousand mats. A crazy amount. Yeah, I actually had to build a storage in my salle to keep the tatami, mostly because they stink, right? They smell.
Brittany Reeves
They have a particular smell. Yes, they do.
Guy Windsor
So I had to build this thing, which then turned into my workshop there. So it was it all worked out. And so what is the tatami crisis? And how is it fixed?
Brittany Reeves
Yes. So in the US, for many years, we had a very steady source for tatami. And a lot of it was because we were able to ship stuff in from Asia, because of the ports in California. It was, you know, expensive and not too bad. And then the pandemic had caused supply chain issues, obviously. But the supplier that we’d had for so long, went out of business, just shrivelled up and disappeared. And we didn’t have a source for tatami and so all we had was what we had stored, which was problematic. So it took a long time, the better part of the entirety of the pandemic for a new supplier to finally emerge. And now we seem to be back online. And there’s no issue. So that’s awesome. But yeah, when it was not getting brought in, we were paying $20 to $25 a mat, which is insane.
Guy Windsor
That’s madness, and if you’re doing two cuts on a mat that is $12.50 a cut. That’s insane. That is like five times what it should be costing.
Brittany Reeves
Yes. It was pretty insane. That’s why paper cutting had become so popular in the US is because what else do we have? We didn’t have tatami, and much cheaper and easy to get. So that was an option. But of course, we understand there are limitations to that. Paper cutting is not the same. But it held us over for the time being and I’m grateful for it. It was really innovative. It was a great adaptation. But now we have to tatami again, I get mine from Kageyama imports, and they’re based in Tucson, so they’re really close to me. I can just drive and get something that I want. I think they’re the major supplier for the US right now. It is Kageyama imports.
Guy Windsor
Okay. And there are other things you can cut. I mean, like, cartons and bottles and hanging rope is a good one. Have you ever tried to cut cotton? Cotton thread?
Brittany Reeves
Once, actually.
Guy Windsor
Did you manage it?
Brittany Reeves
Yes. But I feel like I had an advantage. It was at a tournament. It was SwordSquatch, 2018, 2019.
Guy Windsor
One of the ones I didn’t go to, I think.
Brittany Reeves
Probably.
Guy Windsor
We’ve never met in person, I’m pretty sure.
Brittany Reeves
No, I don’t think so. Not yet. But yeah, they had a feat. It was all to tatami except for one feat, and it was a string. And they had indicated targets that you had to cut on the string. So you had to cut exactly on the string between this piece of tape and this piece of tape for it to be successful. Now, it was weighted at the top and the bottom. So it was a taut string. So easy. But the intention of that was the targeting, the very small target, as opposed to cutting the string.
Guy Windsor
But by cotton thread, what I mean is you take a thread that you would sew on a button with and you hang it with no weight on it. And it weighs nothing.
Brittany Reeves
I’ve never tried that. I should.
Guy Windsor
It is very cheap. It costs practically nothing. Make sure your weapon is freshly sharpened. Because it does need to be properly sharp. And yeah, and then just get used to frustration and disappointment, basically. It is really hard.
Brittany Reeves
I’m very familiar with frustration and disappointment. I’m prepared on that one.
Guy Windsor
Excellent. Yeah, I mean, it’s a lot cheaper tatami and, you can’t do some of the fancy cuts on it, but you really have to get the blade moving really fast for it to go through before the cotton just kind of moves out the way.
Brittany Reeves
I have to try it. That’s cool.
Guy Windsor
Now, in our last conversation, we mentioned having you back on the show to talk about the art history of the Fechtbucher. And your best idea not acted on was writing a book on that subject. Do you have any progress to report?
Brittany Reeves
You know, kind of. So I have not started the book. But I have talked about it with a number of people who are very, very excited and have provided me a great deal of support. And I’m going to have less time for swords in the next few months. So I figured I might as well get cracking on it. So it’s more just been doing all the preliminary research and trying to figure out what exactly I want to focus on. Because just the art history of early Fechtbucher is very broad, and I feel like that might be too big of a topic to tackle. So trying to narrow it down and finding what avenue I want to pursue for a smaller first book. But that is the progress I’ve made.
Guy Windsor
Here’s a thought, you could just pick your favorite source and do an art historical appreciation of that source.
Brittany Reeves
Well, that’s the hard part. How do I pick my favorite?
Guy Windsor
Your favorite source? Oh it’s easy, it’s Fiore. Done. There’s no self interest in that suggestion whatsoever.
Brittany Reeves
No, none. I can’t imagine. If I had to pick one right now, right off the bat, it would actually be Paulus Hector Mair.
Guy Windsor
Fair. That’d be a good choice.
Brittany Reeves
Yep. Beautiful. It’s done by a master artist. There’s lots of historical documentation to dig into. So I think that’d be a good one. We’ll see.
Guy Windsor
It would be a great one, but it’ll be a very big one. Because what might make sense to maybe start by just doing take one image from the book, and just analyze the shit out of that.
Brittany Reeves
Yes, it’s funny you say that. I’m actually doing a separate project. But I kind of like went down a rabbit hole. And I was like, you know what, I think I could just pick one thing in the entire work, and just hone in on it. And that is like enough for something small. So I think that’s probably what I’m going to do just as like a launching point and see where it goes. But we’ll see.
Guy Windsor
Because books are very large projects. But every book is actually made up of, like individual chapters. So when you’re writing your book, you don’t write the book, you write one specific little bit like this paragraph or, or analyzing the colors used in this image. And so you don’t try to write the whole book, just try to write a specific small chunk of it. Like, imagine your friend Guy sent you an email saying, Brittany, I’m a bit confused about the use of colour in this image. What do you think’s going on? And where did these colours come from? And what would you say about that from your art historian perspective? And you just answer that imaginary email. And there’s an article perhaps, or an article that might then become a chapter in a book.
Brittany Reeves
Perfect. Yeah, I’m feeling I’m feeling very motivated. I think I’ve got a good foundation. And I kind of just at this point need to set my feet on the path, really, so.
Guy Windsor
Okay. And what about Fabris?
Brittany Reeves
I don’t know if you remember or not, I only study early KDF. That is where my martial arts focuses. That’s where my art historical focus has been. And I was asked to do a paper for an upcoming project for Fabris. And I was like, well, I mean, I guess I could I’ve never really looked at Fabris. I don’t know much about Fabris. Just even in the martial, like, I’ve never even gone through any of the material. But I spent the last, oh, gosh, several months poring over it. And it is fascinating. Just from an art historical perspective. Right now, I’m digging into some of the early manuscripts that predate the published books. I don’t think there are digital scans that are available or accessible to the public right now, which is kind of unfortunate.
Guy Windsor
There are some, I think, , I’ve definitely seen scans and manuscript copies of Fabris.
Brittany Reeves
Yes, I’ve managed to get my hands on the digitised versions, but from what I can see, you can’t just go on Wiktenauer and look at them. And I think they’ve been removed from the libraries that they’re held in. So you can’t just go see it. So for me to reference these images, I feel kind of bad for your listeners, because they won’t find them. But one of the manuscripts that I was looking at is from 1601. And it was a gift to the Duke that he was employed with before moving on, and it has in the dedication a coat of arms, this is very normal. But what’s abnormal about it, and this completely captured my attention, is it’s a calligram. And for those of you who don’t know what a calligram is, a calligram is like an artistic device where instead of drawing lines to create an image, you’re actually using text to create the image itself. And it is such a rare thing to find in the first place.
Guy Windsor
I’ve never seen one in a historical fencing document. I’ve seen them elsewhere, but never in historical fencing. Okay.
Brittany Reeves
Yeah. And so it’s there. And what’s fascinating about it, is that the entirety of his manuscript is written in Italian, except for this calligram. It’s written in German. And it was like, that’s peculiar. So it’s this coat of arms. It has the crossed keys, and all these different things I’m not super familiar with, like coats of arms and all the symbols and what they all mean. And that is a part of art history that I’m not super well versed in.
Guy Windsor
But there are plenty of people who do heraldry so that can be outsourced.
Brittany Reeves
Exactly. That’s what I was thinking. And I think these are pretty obvious. Because the coat of arms is obviously directly related to the patron of this manuscript.
Guy Windsor
It would be a bit rude to put somebody else’s coat of arms on the Duke’s book, that’d be rude.
Brittany Reeves
But what I can’t quite get is, I can’t make out exactly what the words are in this calendar. And I know that they’re German, because I’ve picked out a few. But they’re so small, like they’re written teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny.
Guy Windsor
And these are handwritten, right?
Brittany Reeves
These are handwritten. Yeah. So if I could get it transcribed, or even one step further, translated, I think it’d be really fascinating to see what the text is, in the context of this coat of arms, like what exactly does it say? And why? I don’t know, I haven’t seen many calligram to begin with, especially in Western European manuscripts. They’re very rare. And then, usually, when we do see them, they’re somewhat religious in their connotation, the context of them is somewhat religious. But this is not, this is completely secular. And so it’s like, oh, this might actually be an extremely unique and very rare example of its kind. I’m mind blown by it, it is one of the coolest things I’ve ever found. But it’s so niche. I’m not sure how many people will actually find that interesting or not.
Guy Windsor
But I think most of the listeners are right now like, where can we see pictures of this? And that kind of thing? Can you send me a picture to put in the show notes?
Brittany Reeves
I can try. I’ll have to just double check with the person that I got it from just to make sure that that’s okay to do. But if I can, it is, honestly, it’s one of the coolest things I’ve ever seen ever for art history.
Guy Windsor
Well, we will definitely try get a picture in the show notes. And if we can, I will make a note when I do the kind of the outro at the end of the episode, I will let the listeners know whether there’s that picture in the show notes or not.
Brittany Reeves
Sounds good to me. I will try to get it.
Guy Windsor
Please do. So, okay, I think probably the question that most listeners will be most interested in hearing your answer to is when we look at the images in for example, Fabris, do you think that they are drawn accurately to life? Or are they more representative or symbolic?
Brittany Reeves
So it depends. If we look at the manuscripts, the ones that predate the published works, no. Despite how beautiful the manuscripts are being illuminated in gold and silver and all the framing on it is beautiful. The hand drawn images of the 1601 are terrible. They are gross. They’re ugly, and the physical forms look like they were shaped from playdough. It’s really weird.
Guy Windsor
Like drawn by an untalented 11 year old.
Brittany Reeves
Yeah, kind of. The way that the bodies are drawn and like the bizarre disproportions reminds me of the 1.33 or the Fecht 1, the Walpurgis Fechtbuch, and their elbows are in like weird places. Weird long arms that don’t quite work anatomically. That’s what it reminds me of. But when we finally get to the published version, they’re not hand painted, like they’re in the manuscripts instead, they are printed. And I think they are anatomically very accurate, in my opinion. I think they’re well done. They’re done by a very skilled artist. I don’t see any big problem with them in terms of like, proper representation.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, my view of, not all of them, but certainly Fabris, Capoferro, the images are supposed to be accurate. In a way that is not necessarily true with some of the hand drawn manuscripts. I would say, Fiore is remarkably accurate in many respects.
Brittany Reeves
Despite its crude images by comparison. Yeah, I would agree.
Guy Windsor
‘Crude’ is a bit of a strong word.
Brittany Reeves
I mean, that from a technical, artistic look.
Guy Windsor
Okay, fair. They’re simple, unadorned images, generally, unadorned images that just show you what to do. But they’re not clumsily done.
Brittany Reeves
No, no, I wouldn’t think so. But just from a technical application of artistic devices that could be used, it is lacking in some cases.
Guy Windsor
That’s heresy.
Brittany Reeves
I mean it in like, an objective way.
Guy Windsor
I’m teasing. Okay, so with these manuscript versions of Fabris. I mean, a presentation manuscript is supposed to be done well. It’s not exactly a job interview. But it’s very much you’re trying to get someone who’s very rich to give you their time, attention and money. And you would think that Fabris would have employed an artist who could actually draw. So what do you think is going on there?
Brittany Reeves
I’m completely speculative at this point, right now in my research, but going off of the 1601 manuscript, it looks like it was never completed. It’s in three volumes. The first volume is beautiful, its lavish, it’s got all the bells and whistles, and it looks complete. And then the second volume, mostly completely, but you can tell there’s a couple things that might have been missing. And then the third volume looks like it was unintentionally put off to the side. And the scribe that would have done it, like all the text that was written, is still beautiful and very accurate. The frames on each of the folia are still expertly done. But not all of them are finished in their coloring. Some of them are still just in an outline phase. Then the figures are put into the book and they are weirdly placed. So you have a book with pages that are completely blank. And then the two figures are put in in a really weird spot in space. They’re not centered, they don’t take up the space, they’re sort of like just thrown in there awkwardly. And there’s a huge amount of negative space, which is really jarring to look at. And the figures, like I said, are anatomically just completely disproportionate. And there’s no way that this was done by the same artist who would have done the frames or anything like that, or the scribing, nothing, totally different. But it’s I think it was like a later edition. I think it was after the fact but I’m speculating on that.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so the images were called slapped in later? Do you know anything about the Duke himself? Because if he died in the middle of this thing being produced, then there’d be no point giving it to him.
Brittany Reeves
So the interesting thing about it is that it’s believed that Fabris gave it to him as a gift, as a parting gift when he left his service. As opposed to this dude his patron being like, I’m paying for this to be made for me. So it was a parting gift at the end of his employ with him. So for it to necessarily be finished to its completion isn’t necessarily required. I think there was like a genuine friendship there.
Guy Windsor
Right. Okay.
Brittany Reeves
This is what I’ve been working on. It’s yours. So it’s left what I think is unfinished via the figures, but they’re added in in a way that no artist could reasonably be like, yes, this looks good. No masterful artist anyway. Sometimes they’re right in the middle, the crease of the pages where they meet, and you’re like, why are they off to a weird side, they’re uncentered. And then 75% of it is just empty space. It’s very weird, and they’re not very well done. But you compare that to the rest of the manuscript itself, which is very beautiful, it looks extremely professional. Obviously, a lot of money went into it. And then there’s these little dough-like figures that are just slapped in there, like a five year old who got happy with their stickers.
Guy Windsor
Looking at it, it could be that 50 years later, someone thought, actually, I want the pictures and got somebody who said they could do it to do it. And when it came back, they were like, that’s shit, but okay, it’s a bit late now. And they just stuck it in a library and forgot about it. Is there any reason to suppose that the images were not done sort of at the same time as the text?
Brittany Reeves
Yeah, that’s what I think. I think they were a later edition. But again, I’m pretty preliminary in my research on that, and I think I’m certain, but just looking at the how the three volumes kind of go from very well done to sort of finished to pretty much unfinished and then there are these images. It’s like, I think the chronology on them would be that the images were added later, but again, I don’t know for sure yet.
Guy Windsor
Okay. Now this is for you’re doing this research into Fabris for Michael Chidester’s HEMA Bookshelf. Fabris reproduction project. This is for the companion volume. I have an original 1606 Fabris on that bookshelf over there, which I showed you before we started recording, which is so cool. I’m fairly sure I backed the project. But I can’t remember whether I did or not. But I’m thinking I have to just go in and make sure that I did order the companion volume because I definitely want to read that article.
Brittany Reeves
Thank you. No pressure, no pressure.
Guy Windsor
So when you when you expect it to be out? Or is that an unfair question?
Brittany Reeves
That’s not for me to answer. Only because the project can really only get started when another project is finished. Okay. So I don’t really know exactly.
Guy Windsor
And this other project is the Meyer?
Brittany Reeves
Yeah. Which I think is just starting to wrap up and go into production here in the next few weeks.
Guy Windsor
Yes, I’ve had long conversations with a friend of mine, who is very, very good at Meyer stuff. And is involved in the project in ways that I will not record here. But he is absolutely terrible at deadlines. So yes, I shall lean on him a bit. And that’s another book that I want. I have the Meyer reproduction on my shelf, but I don’t have the companion volume yet.
Brittany Reeves
That’s one of those things where Michael Chidester has been very gracious with me about a deadline.
Guy Windsor
He’s a nice bloke.
Brittany Reeves
I adore him. All the time I’ve actually got to spend with him has always been very pleasant. And he was actually here in Arizona visiting back in November. And yeah, he’s very, very supportive of me wanting to do art history stuff, because he’s like, there’s not a huge amount of scholarship in this field within the Western martial arts community.
Guy Windsor
We need more art history stuff to be done. And but we do need it published, Brittany. It needs to actually leave your computer and go out into the world.
Brittany Reeves
He’s put the same pressure on me too. He’s very supportive.
Guy Windsor
Excellent. Yeah. Okay. So, all right. Bit of a left turn, there’s a question that I just occurred to me that I want to ask you. You run a historical martial art school. And it’s something that a lot of people think about doing and some people are actually doing. And it’s really useful to know what has worked and what hasn’t. So what is the best decision you’ve made running yours?
Brittany Reeves
Well, best decision I’ve made. There’s a lot of ways I can answer that. Depending on how I frame it, but I think the best decision that I’ve made was getting my own space. I love the freedom of it, not having to sublet from anybody, I can do whatever I want with it. From a business perspective, it was one of the smartest decision decisions we could have ever made. But that’s out of reach for a lot of people. And I totally understand why, there’s a lot of money involved in that.
Guy Windsor
I got my own space in June 2001. And it was an absolute game changer, not having to like schlep bags of swords from one school gym, to another sports hall, and blah, blah, blah.
Brittany Reeves
The professional credibility that it provides you as well, it’s much easier as a martial art school, when you have your own space. And you’re not renting from a dance studio or a CrossFit place. It’s yours. And they go, oh, this place is legit. So that that helps things grow at a much faster rate. But of course, the time, the labour, the risk involved in that is great.
Guy Windsor
But it depends where you live. Like if you’re in, I don’t know, Toronto or London, or, you know, some major city, which is really, really expensive, getting a space that is large enough and high enough and reasonably located so people can actually get there in a reasonable time after work or whatever. It’s not a good business proposition for a lot of people, just because rents for that sort of space are just way too high. You can’t make that kind of money running a school.
Brittany Reeves
Yeah, exactly. I fully agree with you. But for us, it was the best decision.
Guy Windsor
Actually, maybe the best decision was moving to a city where the rent on spaces like that isn’t that high?
Brittany Reeves
Yes. I mean, it’s expensive here. But it’s not like you said, it’s not like the big, huge cities like New York, or Toronto or Los Angeles, it’s still manageable for us.
Guy Windsor
Sure. Okay. And so what has been the worst decision? If you’d like to share your biggest cock up, that’d be great.
Brittany Reeves
Yeah, I’m trying to think of like, one that would actually be useful for people to know, because like, we’ve learned from mistakes, obviously. I think in terms of running the business, I think one of the biggest mistakes I made was starting it off as a nonprofit organization. And then realizing that the reasons I chose to do that were not the best. And for the long term growth that I wanted to see for the business, we needed to dissolve and restructure as a for-profit. So that was an early mistake was going the nonprofit route, and then having to spend several thousand dollars on lawyers to undo all of that, and restructure as a for profit business.
Guy Windsor
So why did you start as a nonprofit?
Brittany Reeves
Well, at first, there was sort of this idea that we could benefit off of the use of the HEMA Alliance, they provide us insurance for cheap. They would give us financial support if we wanted to run events. And, it was just easy. And less burden and less struggle, less responsibility. But it became apparent very quickly, that that also meant I didn’t have the same freedom over how the money that we made could be spent. And I think that was starting to hinder our growth and what we wanted to see and what our five year plan was for the business. It wasn’t viable long term. And it helped us get us on our feet, which was great. And I’m very grateful for the help and the support that the HEMA Alliance provided. But we outgrew it very, very, very quickly. And then to undo it was very expensive.
Guy Windsor
Because the way I did things in Helsinki is I started my school as a company. So a for-profit business. And when my students kind of got themselves organized, they created a nonprofit organization, which rented space and paid for training from me. And that worked really well, because in Finland, at least, there’s all sorts of advantages to being a nonprofit, you get access to grants and access to just loads of stuff. There are all sorts of huge advantages. And there are advantages to having your business and if you can have both, which is what we ended up with, then it worked really well. I’m not suggesting that is a practical suggestion for you. But I was just thinking that listeners might be thinking, well, I either have to go nonprofit, or I have to go for-profit. And that is generally true. But it is not impossible to do both.
Brittany Reeves
To blend. Oh, for sure. And I think there are a lot of instances where being nonprofit can be the way to go. So I’m certainly not saying, oh, it was such a mistake for us, avoid it. No, it was something that me not being super familiar with how to run a business at the time. I had made that decision, just based on like, my experience in the HEMA community, which was, oh, everybody’s Hema Alliance, this is what you do. So not realising I didn’t do enough research for my other options. And then, of course, there was also the hang up where I was an immigrant to the country and not legally allowed to work.
Guy Windsor
Right. Okay.
Brittany Reeves
That got tricky. But we’ve we figured it out, we’ve come to a place where we are now a for-profit, we did it all the right way. And that was the best thing.
Guy Windsor
I know you’ve got your green card, I assume?
Brittany Reeves
No.
Guy Windsor
So you’re not legally allowed to work still?
Brittany Reeves
I can work. I have my green card. But it’s a conditional green card that has expired. So I have a piece of paper that gives me a four year extension before it can be properly processed. So I’m allowed to work. But that’s about it. It’s a mess right now. But not because me.
Guy Windsor
I do find that American to governmental administration stuff is all just Byzantine, and bizarre. And it just makes no sense to me at all.
Brittany Reeves
It’s arduous. I mean, the pandemic created such a huge delay in processing, I should have been done already. But I’m not. It’s just a waiting game at this point. And I’m like, I’m safe. I’m stable. I’ve got my stuff together, like it’s fine. But I’m just not completely done with the process yet. Even though I’ve been living here for almost six years.
Guy Windsor
Right? God forbid, you should rush into things. Okay. The last time we spoke, your imaginary millions were going to go on a research center with original manuscripts for researchers have access to, which is a great idea. Would you still put the money there? Or would you do something else with it?
Brittany Reeves
I think I would shift gears. Knowing what I know now, I would take that million dollars, and I would create a new insurance pool that would cover cutting.
Guy Windsor
Okay. So you’d start an insurance company?
Brittany Reeves
Yeah, specifically for HEMA exclusively.
Guy Windsor
Do you know what? I think there’s a gap in the market there. Because the problem with insurance companies is they don’t have any way to really measure the riskiness of what they’re insuring, in this case, because it’s not been done long enough, with enough formality to have actual data they can rely on to make actuarial predictions. So I understand why they’re very, you want to swing sharp swords around with your friends? No. Not covered. But they’re quite happy to insure a shooting range. It has a long history. And measurable history. And but having lived through it, we know what the risky activities are, and what the risky activities are not. So, I would have a much lower premium for a test cutting tournament than I would for a competitive blunt longsword tournament, because the injury rates are going to be much lower in the cutting, but there’s plenty of combat sports that they can insure. And it looks like a combat sport that they insure. And so they can go well, actually, it’s probably like this and so we can insure it.
Brittany Reeves
Right. And that’s usually what happens is they have to make, like, lateral comparisons as best they can.
Guy Windsor
I think we should just do it. I have a friend who works in insurance. But hang on. You don’t need a million dollars. What you need is the backing of another insurance company. So if you end up having to pay out a large sum of money, you are covered for that. You don’t actually have to have that large sum of money in the bank. There are there are ways around it. I don’t know what it’s like in America. Basically in the 1980s there was this massive storm in Britain and a super famous oldest insurance companies in the world called Lloyds of London lost a ton of money. And what that ended up there was a super famous boxer called Henry Cooper, who because he was a Lloyds name, ended up having to sell his boxing championship belts to help pay his debt. Because as a Lloyds name he was getting paid to underwrite Lloyd’s policies with his personal wealth. So the way the Lloyds insurance company was working back then was if you were rich or whatever, you could get a bit richer by signing up as a Lloyds name and underwriting their policies. But then, when a major national disaster occurred, and Lloyds lost millions, they had to go to the names and say, okay, now you actually have to pay up. So you don’t have to have the money in the bank, what you to have is collateral or access to collateral or to get people to sign up with collateral. So there are ways to do it. Actually as a business proposition, it’s not a bad one. Because every country I’ve ever been to where we’ve ended up discussing insurance for the sort of stuff we do, just has a miserable time of it. There isn’t an insurer that specializes in martial arts and combat sports.
Brittany Reeves
Exactly. Yeah. That’s what I would consider using to maybe get a launching point for that.
Guy Windsor
I mean, having a million in the bank would certainly help set it up.
Brittany Reeves
Yeah. That’s my plan.
Guy Windsor
All right. Okay. You’ve actually given me some things to think about, because it’s not a right project for me, because I have not the brain for that sort of thing. But I do know people who might be.
Brittany Reeves
Okay, well, there you go. Maybe I’ve put that out into the universe and I have now manifested some future solution.
Guy Windsor
Yeah. Okay. I was not expecting to get business ideas this evening. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Brittany. It’s been lovely to see you again.
Brittany Reeves
Yes. Thank you.
