Guy Windsor
I’m here today with David Wagenfeld who is a fencing coach, creator of the En Garde Model for teaching fencing in schools, and the co-founder of Table Mountain Fencing and Historical European Martial Arts with Michael Beardwood. In Fish Hoek, South Australia. Oh my god, I can’t read. Sorry. It’s early in the morning, sort of. South Africa. Actually, you are my very first guest from South Africa. So why I said South Australia I cannot explain. Anyway, welcome to the show, David.
David Wagenfeld
Thank you, Guy.
Guy Windsor
So whereabouts in the world are you? I did say South Africa. Definitely not South Australia. Whereabouts in South Africa are you?
David Wagenfeld
South Africa is a big place. I’m in Cape Town, more specifically somewhere called Lakeside, which is near Muizenberg. So sort of near the peninsula as it gets towards False Bay.
Guy Windsor
Lovely. That’s on the coast?
David Wagenfeld
I live right next to a wetland, which is right next to the bay. Yeah. So it’s on the coast. Yes.
Guy Windsor
I haven’t been to Cape Town since about 1983. So it’s been a while. Yeah, I used to live in Botswana in the 80s. So I’ve been in South Africa many times. But when I was very young, I haven’t been back since about 1986. So it’s been a while. Always happy to go back. So how did you get into fencing? How did that all start?
David Wagenfeld
Hmm. It’s just something that I’ve always wanted to do. I grew up in my grandmother’s house and my great grandfather was an officer in the Zulu wars in the Boer War, and he had a sword. And I grew up with that at her house, and then I just loved the whole romance of swords and that world and I used to just fantasize being a knight. South African TV came late ’75, ‘76. Before that, films and books, and I was just really into swords. I used to dress up as a knight or as a Roman legionnaire and just run around the neighbourhood dressed up like that. It was very funny a few years ago, meeting up with an old neighbour, and she remembered me as a little boy running around with armour with a dustbin lid and a sieve as a mask. And here I was able to say, this is actually what I do. So it was funny for her. And then I got a book when I was a teenager and I thought I’d learn from the book. And I would go around challenging people to duels with rulers. A hankie for protection of my hand and in the school that I went to we didn’t do fencing and then at university, University of Capetown, that’s when I took it up properly. Yeah, so that’s where the journey started at university.
Guy Windsor
Most adult historical martial artists, I think, are basically kids who just never stopped playing with swords. It’s like all kids start and some of us just don’t stop. I can certainly sympathize with the dustbin lid and the ruler, but the sieve as a mask. That’s a new one for me. Great idea. Maybe not to FIE standard, but you make do with what you’ve got, right?
David Wagenfeld
Hardly. It’s just something I’ve always wanted to do. And that’s how I started. But there’s a long journey thereafter. It’s over 40 years now that I’ve been doing the sport.
Guy Windsor
Well, actually, it is nice to meet somebody who has a sort of similar longevity in in fencing. I started fencing when I went to Oakham in 1987. So I’ve just been doing it just about long enough to start to have some vague idea how it actually works. But I need to ask you what happened when you went to Amsterdam?
David Wagenfeld
Okay, yeah, so that was another leg of my journey. I was in the hospitality industry, and I was just really stuck. So after university, I didn’t finish full time, ran out of money. So I went correspondence. And then I was a chef and then front office, and I just got really stuck and frustrated and I was doing coaching on the side at schools. And then ‘95 I went to Holland, beginning of the year, to help managing at the World Championships in The Hague, and help the team and then after that, I just stayed. I had opportunities to stay in New Amsterdam. And I continued my I was doing honours by then, correspondence. And I got stuck in, connected to a club. The first time had a really, really good master. I love sabre. That was my favourite. I’m a short person, and a good balance, I’m well connected to the ground. Epee is my least, but went over in the idea that I’m going to really get into sabre properly. So I connected with a club near the Olympic neighbourhood. And, I mean, I was already too old. It’s just Olympic sports sabre is for 20 year olds. It’s fast, but I still loved it. And I was most competitive in epee and, and Guy, I can relate a lot to footwork, I managed because I move. I don’t stand still. I manage. I cope. I did a lot of epee. And then I apprenticed myself, basically, to a coach in Holland. And he had an academy called En Garde. And that’s where my name comes from. I learned a lot from him. But two years, I didn’t get paid anything. I just soaked up. I just enjoyed going to schools, going to clubs, and just immersing myself in that world. And I two other mentors, I would go to the clubs and go on outings and competitions. And I was just fencing every day of the week. And I was in absolute heaven. This is my life. I was so stuck in competition, organizing and coaching at a really low level. And I just couldn’t get my way out of it. And as in I wanted to be a coach, I want to do full time fencing. It’s just loved it. I felt that this is what I was born to do. It is my mission. Something about it said, this is what I’m here to do. Yeah, so that’s how I ended up in Amsterdam. And what I did, and I kept doing my honours while doing that and doing some work. I’m half Dutch, my father was Dutch. But he anglicized. And other half is that South African mixture. English, Irish, Scots. And I’m half Dutch and that’s how I stayed in Holland. And that was my vision. And while I’m there, I’m going to soak up information, learn and transfer that model to South Africa. But South Africa is not Europe. I had a vision, which is very European. And yet when I came back I created a business, I created my life. I created my job. There’s nothing like it.
Guy Windsor
So you came back to South Africa to basically start your career as a professional fencing coach. So you just said that South Africa is not like Europe. Now I understand what you mean, because I’ve been there. Although not recently. But what difference do you see between how things work in South Africa regarding setting up a fencing school versus how they would work in for example, Amsterdam?
David Wagenfeld
What’s the difference? Yeah, I’ve spent a lot of my life in fantasy orientated with the healthy stuff, but also just not feet on the ground. I think here, you might have heard something about rugby, but we are rugby orientated and cricket: outdoors. So that’s one of the things. We’re very outdoor sport orientated here in Cape Town you might have heard of the beach and the waves and it’s a good outdoor life. So the indoor sports and the Olympic sports don’t do that well, except maybe swimming and athletics. And so that’s one of the big challenges specifically in fencing is that the struggles with the indoor versus outdoor sports and also the culture. I’m African, but I’m also European, and just that different mindset. The countries that do well in fencing have a long tradition. Italian, some of us do Fiore and thereafter and German, Hungarian.
Guy Windsor
Although the Americans do very well these days now. Yeah, they do now, but yes, it took them a while. But now they do very well. Damn them. Also the Chinese.
David Wagenfeld
Also the Chinese, the Chinese, South Korean. Yeah, exactly. It’s changed a lot. Sports fencing has been a worldwide sport.
Guy Windsor
30 years ago. And in the 20th century, it was sort of Russians and Europeans, mostly.
David Wagenfeld
Correct. The Americans, I think, in the last two Olympics, they’ve won more Olympics in the last few Olympics, and they ever have in their entire history. They just had a few up until ‘92. And now it’s doing well, partly because they imported the Russian, Hungarian, Polish influences. My vision is that the En Gardes are having a network of schools with a squad or an academy in the middle. I’ve been on tour to the UK in 2004 with one of the private schools that I went for. And I’ve done that circuit. And what I do is, it’s not common, but it’s there a lot, having your feeders and then a centre, which is basically what I created.
Guy Windsor
Could you just describe the actual structure of the En Garde thing of what you mean by the feeders in the centre and everything? Because, again, the average listener probably doesn’t, I have a fairly good idea, because I used to run a historical martial arts school and similar sort of structures evolved. But I think the average listener may not quite understand what you’re saying.
David Wagenfeld
Yeah. Essentially, this is based on numbers, a lot of young people having fun. And not taking it too seriously. Yeah, so when in Holland, my mentor there was fortunate position of being paid by the council to have outreach programs to schools. So it was going to the place where the students were. And from that, he would then get club members, that would be slightly more serious. And from that, you would have the squad. So every day of the week, there’ll be different school, or different schools, different age groups, so they’re separated, so they are enjoying it. That team is very important of a similar age. And then the people that really want to do well have a late afternoon session, and weekends, and they work together as a squad and as a team, and then go to competitions together as a team. So it’s a combination of an individual sport, and a team, where everyone is trying to get that training ethic to help each other, but also the individual elements very important for high performance. So you need the numbers to make it work.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, so if I just recap that. So basically, lots of high schools, for example, have a fencing club, which you or one of your coaches goes to, that’s fairly low intensity fun for the kids, and the kids who start taking it seriously, come and join the club itself and get extra training. And then from that club, you then train up a squad that turns into your fencing teams of various age groups, various weapons and so on. Yeah, that’s a good way to do it. So you have like a nice broad base of lots and lots of students who are just having fun. And from that group, the more serious ones get selected or select themselves into the club and from there into the squad. That’s a good idea.
David Wagenfeld
That’s what we do.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so how do you solve the equipment problem? Because if there was no fencing in South Africa before this, there’s not a lot of fencing masks and foils and jackets and stuff going around. And I know what it’s like trying to get equipment. Because back in the early days of running my school that was the biggest problem that we had is we couldn’t get swords in reasonable quantities at a reasonable quality for a reasonable price. Now, of course, that problem’s been solved by various suppliers in Europe and elsewhere, but this is the 90s in South Africa. How did you solve the equipment problem?
David Wagenfeld
Equipment? You hit the nail? Yeah. Yes, we do not have shops we don’t have the suppliers like Leon Paul, I’ve been an agent for Leon Paul for a long time. Well, I started by being sold at very cheap rates from our mentors in Holland. I posted parcels of a lot of masks together. Either a lot of things were donated to me or sold as big vision. And so I got things cheaply. And given. That’s how I started. Before COVID, I would have in all these masks and all these jackets, and my approach is very broad. I have all this equipment. Beginning is really difficult. And then the different ages and I coach from six years up to adult. So I have to have all the different sizes. And foils, epees, and sabers, and electric kits and plastrons and whatnot. I started in 99. Before COVID we would share and then COVID happened you can’t share masks. And have people been telling me for years and years and years, let them blinking buy the stuff. Stop subsidizing everyone. I’m a sucker for punishment. And that’s what I do now. They lease until they get. I also get from China more. I haven’t ordered from Leon Paul now for two years. I had a very, very good squad, very good team. At one stage out of the top eight men’s foillists, five of them were my students or ex students. In the guys. It was good. And you know, I was preparing for Olympics, for the Olympic teams, I was sational sabre coach. I’ve stopped that now. 2016 was the Commonwealth. Your people are here in Cape Town held at UCT, University of Cape Town. And I was the sabre coach. And I like hitting people, I like going faster, don’t have much patience. And it was fun. But that was the end of that road, end of that journey. And so I digress. But equipment is much less of a problem now. There’s a new phase in my life. Now it’s about mentoring. I’ve got three assistants, three people are mentoring two students and one guy’s good, qualified. And I’ve got the equipment now and have the financial model to sustain it. Not just give away and get broken. It’s taken 20 years to build up to this level. Yeah, so I’m in a very good position to help people. I have created something which I didn’t have, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so can you just clarify, because now you’ve basically retired from most of the really active coaching. You have a few personal students. And you said something about leasing equipment or whatever. So how does all of that work?
David Wagenfeld
For somebody that’s joined for the first time, we have an introduction quarter. And for that term, they don’t have to rent it, but they pay a deposit. The parents or the adults complete an online lease form. And they pay a deposit for that. And that also motivates people to get their own fairly soon, so after that quarter, they don’t have enough to pay a rental. They would rather get their own. So we started a shop now. A lot happened, Covid has been a really shitty situation. We’ve changed around a lot in all sorts of levels.
Guy Windsor
So that’s a good idea. So basically, in the first term, they can borrow gear and it’s free. But if they want to keep borrowing gear after that they actually have to rent it. That’s a really good idea. I hadn’t thought of that. I had a different system in my school. When students bought masks and swords and whatnot, they could store them in the salle. But if the equipment was dusty or rusty, it got moved on to the beginners’ rack and anybody could use it. But of course, they could come back and reclaim their gear anytime. But because so many people left their swords and masks and disappeared for six months or whatever, within a year or so we could equip a 20 person beginners’ course with masks and swords that were left behind. It was great.
David Wagenfeld
We use a scout hall as our permanent venue.
Guy Windsor
So you can’t leave the swords on the walls.
David Wagenfeld
Not really. No. So that is your last question. What would you do getting there? So this has happened, we’ve got a big, big cupboard. And we have a shop in one part and all that other stuff. On the other end, we’ve got big chunks with swords and stuff. And shields, you’ve got big kite shields and all sorts of things. You’ve got staves, all in the scout hall fighting for space with the church.
Guy Windsor
Okay. Yeah, it is a tricky thing. Okay, so slight left turn. Tell me about young Leonardo.
David Wagenfeld
Ah, did you look at it? One of my things, I remember this as a little person. I love stories and having little stories. I mean, I used to be into radio theatre, with big tapes. And I lived in Simonstown which, if you know, but it’s a naval base, right up against the mountain, and I grew up stick fighting. And I used to love little plays where he would have staves and sticks and shields and whatever little plays as little kids. So at high school we did Macbeth and I remember enjoying that I think when the Macduff gets killed. The son gets killed. The wife gets killed. Doing that, we choreographed that. I was 15. And then, in about 2001, one of the parents of one of my students in Fish Hoek is in an AmDram society. And they were doing the play Compete Works of William Shakespeare Abridged and I choreographed three fight scenes. And that was the beginning. And they did it at a professional theatre as well. And that was a lot of fun. Have you seen it?
Guy Windsor
I have not seen it. I’ve not seen it yet. Send me a link where we can find it. And I’ll put it in the show notes. So people can watch that.
David Wagenfeld
But anyway, so a few years later, I was invited to choreograph and train actors for a TV series. It’s a BBC children’s production. I had it all on a computer. And then I had a computer disaster about 10 years ago, I lost all of it. They’re not easy to find. And there’s one episode which was based on a duel. And one of my young students, 10 year old actually got to star as an extra in that and it’s all about this bully. Swashbuckler, really. Bully, swagger, to bully people into challenging to a duel. And then he will steal money and he humiliated this young boy at the beginning. And the whole story was about how he got his comeuppance. Yeah, it was fun. And Cape Town’s film industry has grown a lot. That was I think, 2012. And there were three episodes, but that was all about a duel. It was a lot. And I do the shorthand, I did that. But the film industry, I do productions occasionally. It’s very last minute. You just drop everything. You might have heard this. It was just dropping everything. And your life doesn’t exist and even 10 o’clock, they want something next day. 10 o’clock at night. That’s happened before and they want something the next day. And I’ve got to train actors. And Blood Drive I’ve been involved in this short scene, again, British actors, that was a trained actor, and then work with the stunt coordinator to work with, a perfectly safe thing. It’s one of the things that I really enjoy is creativity aspects and it is fun, but it is a very, very different industry. And it’s like the people that I look up to, I look at their films.
Guy Windsor
Yeah. We have had quite a few fight directors on. It is a related skill set, but it is a different skill set.
David Wagenfeld
Very different. I do with my kids as well. I start this week.
Guy Windsor
What’s the show?
David Wagenfeld
Well we have a very broad approach. It’s even broader now, because of my HEMA relationships, and the end of the year, so our academic year is the same as the calendar year. So we are all in a bit of a zombie state. So, yeah, so I do HEMA, three weeks, very quickly, based on my first HEMA book, which was yours.
Guy Windsor
Oh, my God, that is so out of date. You can’t base anything on that. It’s so out of date. Please, please upgrade. I will send you the updated version, The Medieval Longsword. Base anything you like on that. But okay, good.
David Wagenfeld
But yeah, so that was 2005, I think anyway, so I do a three week mini course using LARPing swords, Chinese, sturdy plastic core with a foam around it. A Viking and a longsword one. And the three weeks we do this, and we finish that with a competition called Death Row. Which basically means in our ladder challenges, you know, like a ranking.
Guy Windsor
You have to change the person above you on the ladder. And up you go.
David Wagenfeld
Yeah, exactly. In squash and tennis. So Death Row means you’ve only got one life. So you start at the bottom two, challenge the person who lives. Challenge the person above them. And so you move up. And so that’s what I’ve just finished now. And then now we do stage combat. So now I have two lessons of say very, very brief how to do it safely. Eye contact, distance, communication, as a contrast to the competition. The exact opposite of competitive sport or competitive HEMA, the exact opposite. And that’s a very good training tool for all of us, actually. But especially for competitive types. And parallel to learning some of those skills they’ve got to put on a little show for their parents in three weeks time. Currently we haven’t done it, we haven’t really had that. And now we’re doing it again. When I had more time, I don’t know what happened, you could put on things called DVDs and make our own DVDs and use those. Remember those? Well, I would put them all together with intros. And all the different clubs would have their own little show, and I’d put it all together and then give it to the parents. Not on this scale anymore. But it is such fun, you know, and it is such a privilege to do what I’ve always dreamed of doing.
Guy Windsor
I have to circle back because you mentioned that one of your protegees is qualified. And I assume you mean qualified to coach. So I’m curious what coaching qualification system do you use?
David Wagenfeld
Yeah, I got a two year international certificate, part time, and he’s got a one year.
Guy Windsor
Who issues that?
David Wagenfeld
FIE, the international fencing association.
Guy Windsor
Have you done any work with the British Academy of fencing? They have the best coaches teaching program I’ve ever come across. I thoroughly recommend it.
David Wagenfeld
I’m on their website a lot.
Guy Windsor
But I did a week long coaches intensive course for them in I think 2010. And it was a game changer for my ability to teach. So I would totally recommend if you get the chance to send some of your protegees onto that course. I think they run them twice a year. And it’s basically a week of being very, very uncomfortable, finding out just how crap you are at teaching foil.
David Wagenfeld
Well quite. One of the guys has been heavily involved. Also the dad of one of my students, became a fencer himself and became an admin, became a team manager. He started his own club, he was my student then he created his own club. And he’s well connected to the British Academy of Fencing and we have had some courses done online. Because South African fencing had very strong links with the British system, my first coach was brought up in that, which is classic French and the founders of South African fencing besides the Dutch from the end of the 19th century, you know, the Nedelander Frei Fechters Bund or something. Whereas, in Transvaal, the British fencing has had a big influence. My mentors were, the first mentors were British, the British system and in Holland was very different. And I was in Russian. My certificate from FIE was through Russia.
Guy Windsor
So when did the whole historical martial arts things sort of come about for you? Because I know you’re also teaching historical martial arts of some kind. So what are you teaching, historically? And how did that all come about? How do you end up adding that to your sport fencing?
David Wagenfeld
Well, if I was there in your age, I probably would have done HEMA first, but how did it happen? We fell into it. When I was in Holland I did see a promotion for a fair called Het land van Ooit, which basically was called Never Never Land. And they would do these knights in shining armour, the Red Knight and Black Knight and green and yellow I think. And in the middle of Amsterdam, they had the sort of show. There is actually such a thing as that. And then I was registered with University of Amsterdam and doing internet research and I came across SCA. As an aside, at Het land van Ooit there was an accident in the public duels when one knight killed the other. It closed down in 2007. Even though my first encounter was in Holland.
Guy Windsor
Are you saying that one of the one of the performers was actually killed on stage?
David Wagenfeld
Yeah, it was Het land van Ooit. Look into it. Yeah. Actually died. I did some reading and it actually did actually happen. Wasn’t just what I remember hearing back then, it actually happened.
Guy Windsor
Their demonstrations gave you the idea that historical martial arts existed.
David Wagenfeld
So I did some research in SCA when I came back, I did some research. And I got in contact with somebody I knew for fencing who did rapier. He was a Marshall, a rapier person. And he came to our club at that time. We started about 2002. So I first saw rapier and very wobbly type, you know. And the book, the William Wilson book introduced me to that. Ah, because I though, Oh, I know epee, I can do it. Just a little bit bigger, bit heavier. It’s the same thing. Right? Not quite. So that was the first introduction. And then we did it on and off using epees. Also, have you heard of point d’arret? A point with the wax thing you poke into somebody.
Guy Windsor
Well, it sticks on the jacket, so it doesn’t slip, they’re great.
David Wagenfeld
Lovely stuff. Sticks into the jacket. Anyway, so made Spanish style rapiers with these little things, a little bit, quite nice. Didn’t really work. Dangerous for one, secondary still epees. But with nice big quillians and like this. That was fun. Internet is happening, found your book. I’ve seen the Clements book… shhh.
Guy Windsor
Honestly, back when they came out, they were the only books and so they were, by definition, the best books. But they were very quickly superseded by books that were a lot better.
David Wagenfeld
Exactly that was it. And then so yeah, so just growing fascination and then like 2005 Your Swordsman’s Companion came out.
Guy Windsor
It was June 2004 it came out.
David Wagenfeld
We got it a year later. So that was when we started like, properly longsword. Of course, back in the day, there was no training equipment. We’d use another guy in Cape Town, Martin Bassain, have you come across him at all? And he is now in New Zealand. Okay. So he was one of our early influences, and I bought that wall hanger behind me, that’s from him. I bought a couple of his things. And he was one of the first people in Cape Town, he did some workshops. And then also in Stellenbosch, they also started doing HEMA and that also started using this book for kids and for adults, but it was very haphazard. And then I think 2007 Colin Richards visited South Africa. Now the driver of HEMA in South Africa at the time, he’s still around very much, is James Roberts in Pretoria. Have you met him before? He’s been around. He’s travelled. He had the funds to travel. He has published articles. He’s an academic. So it makes it easier. And yeah, so we used to practice with shennai with rulers for the crossguard stuck together.
Guy Windsor
Horrible things. I remember those.
David Wagenfeld
Ruler guards, with silicone paste in between with duct tape. And when rulers broke just put more rulers on. Memories.
Guy Windsor
The youth of today have no idea how lucky they are. They can just buy a decent training sword off the internet like that. Yeah, they have no idea.
David Wagenfeld
Yeah, so we’ve still got them for full time immemorial. We haven’t ever used them recently. Not in the last ten years or so. And then in 2012, I’m 60 now, 61 soon, I had a six week sabbatical and went to and I’d ordered things from Cold Steel. Big, those big black clubs. You know the things I’m talking about?
Guy Windsor
The wasters.
David Wagenfeld
Yes, yes. So this is our first with an edge. And I’ve seen videos of people using it. Oh my goodness. So these are type of things we used. When talking about South African fencing we have to really improvise. And now we import a lot of stuff. But in those days, it all sorts of piping and poles and this and that to make some sort of sword. Yeah, now we use Dave Rawlings fame. Red Dragon. Plastic. I know it’s not your favourite. No, but it’s what we can do. We don’t have the resources. We are really financially tight. And we do what we can do. And we do have some feders, but there’s similar equipment. We don’t have club feders. But we have club Red Dragon arming basket hilt longswords.
Guy Windsor
A longsword shaped object is an awful lot better than nothing. So long as it doesn’t splinter dangerously or have sharp edges where you’re not expecting them or anything like that. It’s a lot better than nothing. And I can sympathize with the difficulty of getting weapons into South Africa because lots of the clubs that I’ve worked with worldwide have similar import problems and like the best solution is for somebody local to start producing decent quality training swords, but it’s very, very difficult to make a living making swords. There’s no real prospects of that occurring. It’s a tricky situation to be in. So use what you can get your hands on and, you know, wait for things to get better.
David Wagenfeld
Exactly. We do have someone in Johannesburg, that does make what he could call feders. But really they are crowbar-ish.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, it is very difficult to make a good handling, properly weighted, nimble sword that is also robust. Because the easiest way to make it more robust is to add more metal and that makes it handle badly. So yeah, it’s difficult. So what do you think the most useful lesson you’ve learned from sport fencing that you can apply to his martial arts? What is what is the most useful crossover, do you think?
David Wagenfeld
There are so many things. When we started formally having HEMA as part of this. It’s unusual in a club where we’ve got a fencing group and a HEMA group in the one club, two different groups. Now, I have got a dedicated instructor. When we started, we say you must do fencing, and you must do this. Very prescriptive. Why? Why do I think fencing has helped me so much understanding HEMA and also I understand more, thanks to HEMA has been some of the things you’ve said, Guy, with your grounding. Specifically footwork. Lots of people that have come into HEMA that I’ve seen, oh, it’s cool, it’s swords, it’s easy, and you just whack the swords around. And I know from fencing, the power actually comes from your back leg, your acceleration, comes from your hips, and your grounding. Without grounding, there is nothing and without moving, there is nothing. So it’s the combination of balance, mobility, grounding, and where you put your weight. And doing fencing well, and not just rushing through things, really does help in terms of mobility, and I’m a testament to that. People say why do you just do it all over the place? Because I’m short, I have to move. And the sort of plodding along that lots of other people do, I think that is one of the things. Another aspect that from my competitive fencing as a coach, a competitive coach, that I can add value is in my specific thing, which is sports psychology and psychology of optimal performance. I think that is something that can really help understanding the emotional thing. I haven’t read it yet but one of my books that is on my bookshelf, I read the first thing, is Fear is the Mind Killer.
Guy Windsor
Absolutely brilliant book. Fear is the Mind Killer by Kaja Sadowski is what we’re talking about. Do you know the very first line in that book? I know off by heart. The first line in that book. I am so proud of this, it is like one of my top claims to fame ever. The first line in that astonishingly good book is “This book would not exist without Guy Windsor.” That’s because I sort of pushed Kaja into writing it. I was like, yes, I am immortal. I am in Kaja’s book.
David Wagenfeld
Cold and windy nights you have Guy Windsor. Yes. You are immortalised. But that philosophy is me. Yeah. I have had such a journey. This this academy has been my learning about myself, learning about life. I threw myself into this and I’ve learned so much. And I’m just learning now how much I’ve got to offer having the confidence to say, actually, I know shit. And I’ve got a lot to share. So in terms of help, that specific skill set where a competitive sports fencer can offer a lot. This is a cool thing and what it’s about, you know, this is a martial art. This is about emotions at another level. You’ve got the footwork on one level, on the ground. And the other level is the head. The emotions, how to manage the emotions, combat psychology. I was a medic in the army. I’ve been in that as well. So yes, it’s about emotions. And another thing is technical thing. Tactics. I’m not very strong, technically speaking, and that’s not my… Sorry, I’ve got a cat here who’s now woken up. But it’s the understanding. Like the German school, the sense of timing and the before and after. I mean, I think sports fencing has a very special understanding of that, if you understand the sense of timing.
Guy Windsor
Okay. Going back to the psychology, what would you say? Can you give us like one specific example of things historical martial artists could do, for example, at a tournament or in some other situation to perform better?
David Wagenfeld
Something specific from psychology that would help them. I’m more martial arts orientated nowadays, more for HEMA than for the competition side. And yet the competition or the tournament is an extremely valuable tool for pressure testing. In terms of that, your last thing to be done, that workshop.
Guy Windsor
Lor Baltimore’s Challenge.
David Wagenfeld
That, I think, is an extremely useful thing from an emotional perspective, how to manage your emotions in that context. One of the things to handle competition is about I would say to my students, the KISS principle, keep it simple. Short and simple, stupid, keep it simple. Do not make it complicated in a pressure situation, depend on the training, fundamentals. Don’t overcomplicate things, keep it very simple. I was very proud of my students yesterday when we did this death row challenge. We were just doing the knee the head thing don’t react to the defend for the knee. Counter attack. Fundamental stuff, counter attack. And he did it. Every single time. Get to your opponent on an emotional level, get them scared. Get them reacting. And then they’re at the end of a string. Get your opponents reacting.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, I agree. Sounds great. So it’s often the case that people think that sort of mainstream historical martial arts, like us in Europe or America, whatever, have a lot to teach those in the colonies. But it’s actually I think, more useful to flip that around. And ask, what do you think the mainstream historical martial arts in Europe, America could learn from what’s going on in South Africa?
David Wagenfeld
What can you learn? Improvise. It doesn’t have to be always formal. You know, on the one level, it must be fun. But I think the one thing that you always got to be very conscious of is safety. So we have limited resources. We have a very limited public exposure part of our awareness. So we’ve got to be out there, we’re going to be out in the community, we’ve got to be talking it until people actually kill us Can you please stop talking about swords? I’ve got really got to sell and push. But improvising is really important. Because to grow you need the base. It’s chicken and egg, you need to get the base out and not to be elitist. Like I’ve seen one of your podcasts with armour, a number of your podcast about armour. And we do also have people that do harnischfechten and we do have people that like that, but Blossfechten, that’s my thing and not just pad it up, so now you are padded up now you are an armoured knight. I’m very much for you’re just doing it for protection. But if we want to broaden it and survival is having a base, depends on it. You need to in a sense popularise it. You know the big popular is the sort of Star Wars and Jedi, it’s bigger than I believe than HEMA even in South Africa the amount of lightsaber 10,000 Rand is out there, it’s far more than HEMA compatible or western swords.
Guy Windsor
It’s mad, isn’t it? It’s like lightsaber duelling is massively popular and people spend huge amounts of money on their training gear. Whereas historical martial arts, we are sort of trailing in the equipment stakes and trailing in the level of, of money people are willing to drop on it. It’s weird.
David Wagenfeld
Absolutely. So when a movie comes out, no matter how bad it is. A Knight’s Tale, for example, or The Last Duel. Terrible things. But something comes out the popularizing things, even Star Wars, popularizing things. So before COVID we had teams named after the Musketeers. And I would have foam sabers for the games and battles and whatever. Now, it’s the Jedi and the Sith. So we have pool noodles with duct tape handles. And one is the Jedi, one is the Sith. And I put all the naughty boys in the Sith. Not necessarily, but I tease them that you are a Sith because you’re naughty. But just make it simple, somehow. Accessibility. And make it both in the popular culture but also in language people understand. And we’ve tried in school with HEMA. I’ve got one boy in his late teens. He’s passionate about HEMA. And I said I don’t teach kids, under 18s, it’s in our adult club that is strictly adult club. So you can have adult socials and things. But within the kids I did one term, I said, you must do fencing first. And he did. And he goes wins against adults in a tournament, he can participate in it. He’s got the foundation, I can see the results. He does HEMA formally. And then we’re doing Red Dragon backsword tournaments. That’s what we mainly do. And he does well without doing any actual HEMA. But just because he has got a mind, he is doing boxing.
Guy Windsor
And that’s the thing, if you have a background in any kind of competitive sport, like fencing, or boxing or anything like that, you are likely to do pretty well in historical martial arts tournaments, because the actual historical martial arts bit isn’t terribly relevant for winning the tournament. It’s not. And, you know, the styles that we learned from 15th century manuscripts have not been designed for winning 21st century friendly tournaments. That’s a different thing. So, it’s unsurprising to me that a decent sport fencer can just show up and do well. And actually, that’s one of the reasons why when I opened my school, I mean, I was mostly a smallsword person. But when I opened my school in 2001, I went with longsword as the primary starter weapon for everyone, primarily, so that sport fencers would not confuse what I was doing with what they were doing, because you can kind of mistake a foil for a smallsword. But you can’t mistake a foil for a longsword. So that’s actually how I ended up really getting sucked into the whole Fiore thing is because I needed to differentiate what I was doing with what the sport fencers were doing.
David Wagenfeld
I see. The adult club, the Table Mountain fencing HEMA Club, which is based in Newlands, the primary weapon is longsword and we’ve gone German. Partly because of the accessibility that and my assistant that does the most of the instructing, he loves Meyer partly because it’s accessible in terms of our understand of it. It’s a sports version of longsword, essentially. Yeah, so there’s our understanding is it’s a sports version of longsword, directly in the manuscript.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, they do exist. But again, it’s still not adapted for a modern tournament. There’s this sort of trope in historical martial arts that the longsword in Meyer is a sport fencing style. And that’s not strictly accurate. Yeah, there’s lots more going on there. And, again, it’s also a mistake, I think, to treat the different weapons sections of Meyer as separate things. It’s like, this is the Art of Arms. And here it is applied with a dusack here it is applied with a rapier, here it is applied with a longsword, for this particular context and so on. But I think you need that the whole book to make sense of any part of it. That’s my view. But let’s this let me throw my favourite question at you. Which is, what is the best idea you haven’t acted on yet?
David Wagenfeld
Hmm. Well, I’m living what I dreamed about. And then got that vision. So I’ve done it.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, you acted on it. Yeah, you’ve done it. Fair enough.
David Wagenfeld
But writing, I used to write a lot. And I used to be very academic. Twenty years ago, and I write this children’s book, like a coming of age book for kids, like an inspirational book, that’s gone off. But more recently, especially during the COVID era, is to get my blog going. I have a blog in theory, but it’s more about rankings and points and systems rather than what my lessons are. So, yeah, it’s to get my blog going, finally, to actually to be a functional blog, and then to write a book based on that. That was my vision.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so what is what is the book going to be, basically it’s like as sports psychology applied to historic martial arts?
David Wagenfeld
That kind of thing, I have to brew a bit longer before I can do it.
Guy Windsor
So the blog as a way of sort of trying out bits that may end up in the book and maybe getting some feedback on this particular chapter. And then eventually, you’ll have most of the book already written on your blog, and then you just have to kind of edit it and craft it into the actual book. That’s a good way to do it.
David Wagenfeld
That’s been an idea the last few years. Well…
Guy Windsor
What’s stopping you?
David Wagenfeld
What’s stopping you, the writer? It was a big part of me. I used to do these every single week and it’s all just stopped. Survival. It’s got so tough the last 10 years here.
Guy Windsor
That doesn’t actually answer my question. So what’s stopping you from writing the book?
David Wagenfeld
Yeah, what’s stopping me? I think, you know, the fear of when I put something down as in print, and then it’s there, it’s out there. Even a blog. I’ve got friends that have written fantasy novels and all sorts of things. But it’s something I haven’t done yet.
Guy Windsor
You’re afraid of judgment?
David Wagenfeld
Yeah, I think so. I think that is a thing and that’s having a blog is a safer way of getting it out there, just to start off. You know, I used to do it. The lessons that I’ve learned, when I talk about how I handled COVID. I’ve taught HEMA online, not just a video but actually live.
Guy Windsor
It’s horrible. I hate doing it. It was necessary in COVID but it is an awful way to teach. I hate it so much.
David Wagenfeld
Even up to last year, because we established this national group from Bloemfontein, which is in the middle of the country, to Durban. Then some little towns from all over. It dwindled a lot and in the last quarter I was doing rapier following your course. I’m going to get up and show you some things I’ve got here. But I’m just keeping it very simple pedantic. I’m at a sort of an introductory beginner level. I am very just, you know, go things properly. And if there’s preparing for competition, use, apply what you’ve learned. And don’t try to be creative in the situation, just apply what you’ve learned. So I’m doing plate 7, plate 16. And the different options, every option. That’s the core of your program. And I just love it because that’s the game.
Guy Windsor
I have a thought for you. You have you have students, right? And the students actually pay you for your opinion. Agreed? So rather than writing your blog, or your book for the world, just write for one student who needs to know the thing that you are currently writing about. And you put it online for that student to read because it’s a convenient way of getting it to that student. And if that student finds it useful, it is therefore by definition successful, and you don’t have to care what anybody who stumbles upon it might think. So that way, you’re just writing for the one student who you know will find it useful. That mental framing might help get you past that fear of judgment.
David Wagenfeld
That ties in with my mentoring of these three guys, precisely, because it’s that succession planning. It’s this phase, we’re going into now building something beyond me. And having that blog directs it.
Guy Windsor
Yeah. So, maybe just write it for them. And if other people happen to like it, great. And if they don’t like it well, so what, it’s not for them. So, maybe in a year’s time or so, the book will be in first draft and maybe a year after that, you’ll be coming back on the show to talk about your new book. Okay, so last question. Somebody gives you a million dollars, which is something like, I don’t know, is that 10 million Rand or something?
David Wagenfeld
It’s a lot more than that now. Our currency is horrendous. It’s more like 18 million Rand.
Guy Windsor
Jeez. To spend improving historical martial arts worldwide. How would you spend the money?
David Wagenfeld
Well, part of my hats in previous life was in the tourism industry in catering. I’ve always wanted to have a I think, keep it simple and don’t get too dreamy, a permanent base. But not just a permanent base for ourselves. But for that there’s also accommodations as like a backpackers’. We need guest instructors, we’ve had a number of the years. James used to be the host of them, he would organize them some. Bob Brooks has come to Cape Town, I met him, wonderful guy, absolutely. That was wonderful and going to the pub with him was quite scary. So you know, we can do it by just having a base where we can have people visiting and South Africa is big. I’ve been involved in helping a group starting in Port Elizabeth, now called Gqeberha, to stimulate starting in Bloemfontein and some other towns helping, sort of focusing rapier in Durban, having a base where they can stay as a backpacker in the hall.
Guy Windsor
When I was living in Finland, and I had a salle, we didn’t have a sort of backpackers hostel next to it. So I didn’t advertise or charge for accommodation, but it was generally understood even though it was technically illegal. It was generally understood that students who were visiting from wherever could bring a sleeping bag and sleep in the hall. And we had students coming from Singapore, from Chile, from all over the world came and because they have free accommodation, it just made the whole thing a lot more affordable. And there was a kitchen and a washing machine and a bathroom with a shower and everything. One guy stayed in the salle for about six months. Basically, living the martial arts dream. And it makes such a difference to what you can do. And who can then afford to come to these things. Because flying to a foreign country for a one day seminar is probably not a good investment. But if you can stay for two or three weeks and get two or three weeks of fairly intense training, all for the same cost of flights. That’s a lot better proposition. So yeah, it’s a great idea. Create a centre, make sure that people can stay there if they need to. Absolutely, I think you should get it done.
David Wagenfeld
And for visiting from around the country, but also internationally. We’ve had a number of visitors to our club from America, from Sweden or Denmark, but we’ve had people, Germany. Holland.
Guy Windsor
I mean, you don’t need 18 million Rand to do this. I didn’t have 18 million Rand when I started my school. The rent on my first salle was 800 euros a month in 2001. So it was a lot of money. And it was more than I could afford, but I did it anyway. And it worked out.
David Wagenfeld
It might be added to those things of ideas that I haven’t been acted upon yet that are achievable, that definitely are achievable. And when I was in Holland and I have studied tourism and I do have some international contacts. Yeah, so, it is possible and you know, we have a mountain we have got a very nice city to visit and do things as well. And Stellenbosch is coming on very nicely in terms of the HEMA. We do have swordsmiths.
Guy Windsor
So, just do it.
David Wagenfeld
That is definitely achievable. But money is tight. Bursaries too, just making it achievable is possible. We have fees, but some other groups they are low or no fees just to make HEMA possible. We have a quarterly tournament started again, a COVID era thing. We don’t need a hall, we go outside. So we’re go to the park right next door. And we have a tournament outside. And it’s growing and across the country and it’s happening. Fairly simple rule sets we base on backsword. That’s another one of the things I would do – what can sports fencing teach HEMA, would be simplified rule sets and fairly consistent. This is more the sports part of HEMA. I see the sport part is more of a way of testing the training rather than the other way around, but it is a way of having consistency that your training is towards a particular goal. And having a consistent rule set around the world helps.
Guy Windsor
Let’s get back on topic. What really is stopping you from finding a space and renting it and making it available as a historical martial arts training hall?
David Wagenfeld
I’ve done it before. I’ve done it for a year. And I took it on me as a salle in conjunction with Judo, Karate, we did it together. And that is when I got to my team to national level. It was very expensive and it broke my bank. I took it on me personally. What’s happening now is we’re establishing an NPO where the head of it currently but there’s a team including the head of the fencing group, the head of the HEMA group. A guy from Stellenbosch that travels, who likes making staves for staff fighting and we’re getting various people in and I think the solution, the next step, is to get this going and to make it financially viable, more viable. And then more skills, bigger group of people with different skills that can make this happen. Whereas maybe my skill set wasn’t aligned to making this financially sustainable.
Guy Windsor
So when you come on the show in a couple of years’ time to talk about your new book, you can tell us all about your new salle at the same time. Excellent.
David Wagenfeld
Thank you, Guy. Yeah, it’s exciting times, and it’s grown because of the COVID era, they’re forced to go online. And we were very creative. At the beginning it was about comparing beer recipes, pineapple beer recipes in South Africa, we have very stringent regulations, no alcohol. So we had all these pineapple beer experimentations. And we started this Whatsapp group and we are growing the foundation for HEMA. It’s still early days.
Guy Windsor
And actually, I mean, there have been silver linings to the pandemic, this podcast probably would not exist if we hadn’t had COVID. I’d have been too busy travelling around teaching seminars and whatnot to even think about it. But because I was stuck at home, and I thought, I think that my sword people are probably missing going to the salle and talking about swords with their friends. Why don’t I start a podcast where they can hear people talking about swords like they would if they went to their club? This actually might be useful for people. And it was because everyone was stuck at home on their own. I thought this might be a particularly good way to do it. So yeah, so fingers crossed your internet conversion post-pandemic will give you the base that you need to start this historical martial arts centre.
David Wagenfeld
I think growing this community and I import equipment now. We didn’t have enough people to, but now we are growing. And I’m stocking equipment with a small margin, very small, it’s not profitable yet. But to be able to go to the salle and get the Chinese masks. And get Red Dragon swords. We have Red Dragon gloves. Another one of your pet hates, I know.
Guy Windsor
Horrible things.
David Wagenfeld
They made it accessible.
Guy Windsor
Well, but you don’t even need them. Parry!
David Wagenfeld
Parry. Well, this is a week old. And that is from we’ve been doing Bolognese recently. I love it. That’s what I tell people too you got to hit. So then don’t get hit. Move!
Guy Windsor
Yeah, parry. Footwork. Bladework.
David Wagenfeld
Exactly. So that is the thing. My philosophy is very less protection, and more self control. And defence, strong technique. Moving, don’t just stand there and get hit and your batting takes it up. Move. It doesn’t always work.
Guy Windsor
Because your opponent can move too.
David Wagenfeld
Exactly. If they’re up to it.
Guy Windsor
But you wear equipment so that your partner can hit you. So if you’re not wearing the equipment, you don’t get hit. If it’s done properly.
David Wagenfeld
So things are looking up. And you know, we are isolated here in South Africa. You know what you’ve just been to, Lord Baltimore,
Guy Windsor
Lord Baltimore’s Challenge in Baltimore in the United States.
David Wagenfeld
Fantastic. We’ve got a tournament coming up just over a month’s time. And I’m looking at how I can tweak things. I’m a good competition organizer. Becoming a coach that’s what I used to do in fencing, and it’s something that I can do and the points and the rankings and all that sort of thing. And just having that feedback, immediate. I think it’s incredible. I think that’s wonderful. That opportunity, but how did you get that balance between the training for training sake and testing it? The testing is really important that it isn’t just about the competitions for competition’s sake.
Guy Windsor
But then there’s lots of different ways to test and competition is just one of those ways. Another way to test is you restrict the allowed techniques, and you go for intensity and fatigue. And when the students are very fatigued, they start to make mistakes and it mimics the other stresses that you can experience. And so, if you can do it when you feel like you’re going to throw up in your mask and everything hurts, but you can still parry and strike properly, then you’ve probably learned something.
David Wagenfeld
That’s similar to one of your guests who would train in armour and fill the visor up. Polish guy. I’ve been to Poland about three times.
Guy Windsor
Yes, lovely place.
David Wagenfeld
With a sports tour in 2010, fencing in Krakow. The kids were joking the boys were saying you’ve seen us being humiliated. Now we’re going to see you go to the HEMA club. And the Rapier was Spanish style. And I was actually perfectly fine. I didn’t get humiliated. It was lovely, very, very rigid forte, and flexible diabole. Yeah, and then my first ever experience of Polish sabre was there too.
Guy Windsor
Polish sabre in Poland is the real thing. It’s a great way to get yourself turned into mincemeat.
David Wagenfeld
It’s curved, it’s not the same. Yeah, this is good. With seriously nasty blades. The other experience of HEMA was in when I went to Poznan, the international competition. And before the competition between each final, they had a display choreographed Slavic Viking era sort of Slavic fighting. And then they had a longsword fight and then they had a bit of Hussar-style Polish sabre. That’s something that can be done. You know, again, get it out in public. In between each final between the different categories they had a display. And then around the hall in the display area outside they had children’s like painting shields thing and they had a living history expose. And then they had guys dressed in armour and some swords, which look like chainsaws. Obviously injury and just stuck more toilet paper on it. You know. It’s the Polish way. So I’ve had experiences before. Yeah, they’ve been stepping stones. But then again, they brought HEMA right into the sports fencing consciousness. It was right there.
Guy Windsor
That’s a great idea.
David Wagenfeld
That’s an important lesson and it should be right there.
Guy Windsor
Excellent. Well, we’ve covered quite a lot of ground. So thanks so much for joining me today, David. It’s been lovely to meet you.
David Wagenfeld
Absolute pleasure. Thanks so much, Guy.
